(Note - 6/12/06 for an update on this story, click here)Â
(Note added: For posts I’ve written on this topic as a result of the responses to this one, please check this post and this post and ESPECIALLY this post).Â
Since last night the news has been filled with reports of the Tennessee Church of Christ minister, Matthew Winkler, who had been murdered. The police were looking for his wife and three young daughters. Today the wife and daughters (ages one, six, and eight) were found, and the wife, Mary Winkler, admitted that she had killed her husband. No one knows why.
When I first heard the news - especially the part about the man being a Church of Christ minister who preached sermons that were “strictly Bible-based,” I couldn’t help but think about my own experience in the Church of Christ. Then when I heard that the wife had admitted to the murder, I swear my first thought was, “Well, and no wonder!”
Before I go further, I want to stress that I sincerely feel awful that the man was killed. The wife not only killed her husband, but she also has ruined her own life and the lives of her three daughters. The three little girls have lost both parents. It’s a tragedy, and I know NOTHING about the case other than what has been reported on the news - which is that no one knows why the woman murdered her husband.
With that said, I have to say that I sure have some speculations about it. The Church of Christ is an oppressive church. I had no idea what the COC’s beliefs were until I attended one of their churches regularly during 2003. I won’t go into the reasons for my one-year stint at a COC, but I stayed as long as I had to, and then I got the heck out of Dodge.
It’s a “pick and choose” religion - They pick the scriptures they want to believe and ignore the ones they don’t want to believe. They don’t have any instrumental music in their churches because they say there is no mention of it in the New Testament. Supposedly they “add nothing to the Bible and take nothing away from it” or something like that. I guess they forgot all the “praise Him with harp and cymbals” type verses in the Old Testament. Psalms 33:1-3 is an example: “Let all the joys of the godly well up in praise to the Lord, for it is right to praise Him. Play joyous melodies of praise upon the lyre and on the harp. Compose new songs of praise to him, accompanied skillfully on the harp; sing joyfully.” Or maybe the Old Testament doesn’t count. As I said, they pick and choose.
The belief, though, that I feel is truly dangerous is their belief about the role of women in the church. Women are not allowed to speak or take any leadership role whatsoever in church services. The church takes the Bible verse about how women should be quiet in church (which had to do with Biblical times when women were not educated) and ignores the fact that there were women prophets.
Women can’t even lead singing. Sometimes they’ll have four men up front during hymns - one each for bass, tenor, alto and soprano. Song leaders are necessary since there is no instrumental accompaniment. It was hilarious once when we attended a COC-affiliated college church service and they needed someone to lead the soprano part, the “liberal” college allowed a woman to lead (guess they couldn’t find a guy with a high voice) - BUT they made her SIT in the back of the church (so none of the church members could see her) and had her sing into a microphone. It was an exercise in futility, though, because no one could hear her. A scandalized church member probably turned off her mic.
Women can’t pray in Sunday School classes either. However, they ARE allowed to teach children’s classes, and they can provide food for church gatherings. Generous of the men, isn’t it?
I forget where microphones and projection screens are mentioned in the scriptures, but surely there’s a Bible verse about them somewhere since they’re both used during each service at all the COC churches I attended.
One petty/catty observation: I remember during one church service watching the ushers as they walked up to the front of the church - pot bellies hanging out — and I thought, “Yes, now those are truly examples of superior beings.”
The thing that saddened me the most, though, was the children - Young girls talking about “choosing” submission - not even realizing that their choice was the result of years of indoctrination - and not knowing how oppressive and damaging that submission would become after years of marriage. And then the boys strutting around with their superior attitudes - because actions speak louder than words, and one of the COC’s foundations is that men are better than women. Women are to be seen (when they take care of the children and men) but not heard. Talk about the makings for wife abuse!
The ministers talk about how women are treasured and uplifted in the COC - that the submission of women is like a gift to them. I think many of them really believe it, too. It’s sad, and it broke my heart to see two young people I truly cared for being brought up with those beliefs. Even though I’m no longer in their lives, I worry about their future.
I went into the COC not knowing anything about it. I was open and receptive and looking forward to meeting the people there and being involved in the church. I went from surprise and interest eventually to disgust. As I learned more, I found that it was just silly. I know there are many good people in the church - many solid, well-intentioned, Christian people. However, that doesn’t negate the damaging effects of their erroneous beliefs. I knew there was no way I could remain in such a church.
And that brings me back to the murder. Later news about the murder mentioned that the couple had met at a COC college. So here we have a woman - married to a COC minister - a minister bound to diligently preach COC doctrine - and with three young daughters - the wife thinking about the prospect of the three girls growing up in such an oppressive religion - no way to escape (since divorce is not a viable option for a COC minister) - my guess is she reached the breaking point. Well, obviously she reached a breaking point since she murdered her husband.
Maybe I’m totally wrong - maybe I’m right. I have no idea. There are several theories circulating around the blogosphere. I will be following this story in the coming weeks and months. It will be interesting to see if a life of forced submission and subservience had anything to do with the murder.
Others blogging on the topic: historymike’s musings, Lubos Motl’s Reference Frame, Assorted Babble, EBBP, Pundit Guy, biblioblography, Jane Genova, World Views, Daffodil Lane, Mountaineer Musings, Home Sweet Home,
Sphere: Related Content
March 25th, 2006 at 8:57 am
I think you should wait for your judgements until the facts are in. You are right about one thing. You are being very catty and petty.
March 25th, 2006 at 10:08 am
funny, i was married to an adulterous sex fiend in the church for 7 years, and i never once considered killing him.
March 25th, 2006 at 10:48 am
March 25th, 2006 at 10:49 am
I appreciated your observations. All I knew about the COC was the ‘no musical instruments’ thing.
It will be interesting to see the entire story unfold.
BTW, I think Gary, the above commenter, must have missed the sentence where you explained that these were your observations and opinions about the church NOT a judgement against the wife.
March 25th, 2006 at 11:20 am
Carol - this is well thought out and non-judgemental. As Jane said - you point out it’s your personal observations. You are certainly not catty or petty. You also point out that you are speculating.
I think it will be interesting to see how this all unfolds.
I’ve also had some involvment with that church - many years ago - and found it to be very restrictive and condescending towards women. I personally would not want to participate with a religion like that. Most of the people I knew who went there at the time did not practice the religion outside of the church.
Whatever the reasons or circumstances 2 young lives are destroyed and there are 3 parentless children who will be forever changed because of these events. It’s terribly sad.
March 25th, 2006 at 11:59 am
Thank you, Jane and ? (not “carol” - probably Beth instead)
Gary didn’t leave his email or URL - which means he’s just a troll who goes around making negative comments but without the courage to identify himself.
The comment about the potbellies was catty/petty - at the time it was a humorous observation. And I prefaced the remark as such. The rest of the post stands.
Obviously something was very, very wrong in that family. Time will tell what it was.
March 25th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
That’s a convincing story - and nice blog title and theme, by the way. I’ve added a link to your analysis to my article about it,
http://motls.blogspot.com/2006/03/mary-winkler-motive.html
March 25th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
As a former member of the Church of Christ, for 18-19 years I feel for Mary Winkler, I dont condone her actions, but being there first hand and knowing what the Church is all about, perhaps will aid her defense. However the crime happened in Tennessee, any jury is bound to be full of Church of Christ Men and Women, this is a case of a must for it to be moved out of the state for Mary Winkler to recieve a fair trial. Tennessee is a hotbed of a Church of Christ on every corner just like Mcdonalds.
If a issue of the Church is brought up as a defense, this trial must be moved.
March 25th, 2006 at 5:15 pm
Sorry.. I also linked to your blog for my posting.
http://www.mikesdelirium.blogspot.com reffering to above comment.
March 25th, 2006 at 5:42 pm
As a “member” of the CofC I can say some of the things you say are true. Just realize that there is no governing body over the CofC and that their belief principles differ from one church to the other. I would prefer you speak to the church you visited/attended instead of making a sweeping generalization about believers who happen to attend a CofC.
Jason
March 25th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
Good point, Jason. I understand that each church is separate. The ones I attended are in the Nashville area and in Arkansas (the college-associated one). However, aren’t the guidelines of no instrumental music and women unable to speak or participate in leadership roles in the church (except for taking care of or teaching children and doing other behind-the-scenes jobs) and also submissive to the husband in marriage pretty much standard throughout all COC churches?
March 25th, 2006 at 8:41 pm
Unfortunately, yes, but we are starting to see some movements to the contrary. Some of our more “progressive†CofC’s are removing that name from their building signs so that non-believers and believers alike will not automatically stereotype. A church should be more about encouraging one to grow in Christ in love and not man made tradition and legalism. Oak Hills, the home of Max Lucado is one in particular. Highland CofC in Abilene could be the next? Maybe Farmers Branch CofC in Dallas (where my wife and I attend)? I have attended each of these churches over the years and have received some ridicule for the decision. Mike Cope is the minister at Highland and he once served as the minister at the College CofC across the street from the school in Arkansas. God can change hearts and reveal new things, even to an old heart!
By the way, God does command wives to submit to their husbands. The problem occurs when men don’t love their wives as Christ loved the church. Jesus was God in the flesh and humbled himself to live among us. Many men today have a problem with humility. If I don’t love my wife as Christ loved the church, why would she ever respect me, or even submit for that matter? I wouldn’t expect her to. Moreover, scripture does not say “women, submit to all men and live oppressed.†Christ offers freedom. He came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. Shame on me if I ever interfere with God working in my wife’s heart and life.
March 25th, 2006 at 11:04 pm
Note: I do not hold with much of CofC teachings. Have never been a member or regular attender of a CofC church, but have known many who have been, including many “ruling elders” and “teaching elders” in CofC churches, have read CofC lit, including books used by some CofC schools that turn out no few “teaching/preaching elders”. It’s a wacko theology IMO, but…
One thing to keep in mind about CofC churches, Carol, is that they vary more than perhaps any single “denomination” from church to chrch. (And yes, I know that one thing nearly all CofC churches have in common is that they deny being a “denomination” *sigh*)
Most of the characteristics you mention as CofC are in fact common to many CofC churches. Some are almost universal, some relatively rare, in my knowledge. The reason for that is the peculiar polity of CofC churches which is fiercely independant, in such a way that the local organization pretty darned well decides what is “right” based on a consensus of those who are running THAT congregation.
The polity is more involved than that, of course, but it is largely the historical roots and current polity that drive the theology of local congregations, and that makes for a wide degree of variance in some of the areas you outline—not that many CofC folks will admit that… heh
As a sidebar, I used to tell friends who were CofC that they needed to either excise the lord’s Prayer OR the Revelation of john, cos the one has Jesus telling his deciples to pray that the Father’s will be done “on earth as it is in heaven” and the other speaks of instrumental music in heaven… Can’t deny instrumental music in churches unless you delete one or the other…
Oh. Well.
But the “no instruments in churches” is probably the least serious fault in CofC theology. It’s simply a symptom of remaking the scriptures (and their God) in their own image, instead of the other way around.
Want something even weirder? Here in America’s Third World Countyâ„¢ we have congregations calling themselves “Church(es) of Christ” that are renegade Mormons who consider the LDS to be heretical cos it doesn’t include some other mythical “scriptures” cooked up by Joseph Smith. Cultic weirdness. by comparison, the other more “normal” CofC churches are downright mainline…
*sigh*
March 26th, 2006 at 1:40 am
So you have no idea whether you are right or wrong, and still you posted this? I believe there are plenty of Proverbs that warn against speaking foolishness, engaging in baseless speculation, gossiping, but perhaps you did not spend much time during your experience with that congregation engaged in much Bible study. You would not be alone.
I cannot discount your experience with a “church of Christ” - it is your experience, and I have no reason to doubt the truthfulness of your account. However, your experience, as narrow as it is, especially, can hardly be the basis for judging all congregations that call themselves by the name “church of Christ.” I have been an active member of eight autonomous congregations, on the West Coast, in the Northeast, and in the southern states. The only generality I might note would be that some congregations in the south (not the ones I choose to worship with) were more likely to be “churches of Christ” in name and appearance only, being afflicted with the Southern tendency to avow a holy appearance as more important than a holy life.
I am assuming that the “church of Christ” you worked with was one of these name only, having long past gone down the road of institutionalism, further and further away from the gospel. and. ultimately becoming no different than the Methodist or Baptist churches down the street. Too bad you did not take the opportunity to judge the congregation against the standard I assume it still purported to follow - the Bible - and then when you found it to be in error, you should have spoken up, or moved on in search of another congregation sincerely trying to follow the pattern of New Testament Christianity.
Max Lucado and his congregation (yes, more his, than Christ’s) only changed its name after a Baptist group encouraged it. That congregation has not shared a spiritual heritage with the churches in Antioch, Corinth, Ephesus, Philippi, etc, for years and years. And that congregation is not the only one mired in error and hypocrisy.
March 26th, 2006 at 2:13 am
March 26th, 2006 at 5:51 am
Many of the comments about the church of Christ seemed made in ignorant judgement. People in the church of Christ are sinners. They are not perfect as the writer seems to think they should be. Perfection is to be had through Jesus Christ. They succonb at time to the whims of the devil to solve their worldly situations rather than trusting in God through His Christ.
The devil is the reason for this tragedy not, Christ’s church.
Judgenot
March 26th, 2006 at 6:23 am
Now you’ve done it! You have criticized a religious paradigm. You should know by now that once someone is washed in the blood of the lamb their sense of reason, proportion and logic takes a hike. You are messing with their eternal salvation and no questioning of their beliefs is possible. As you can see, the Christian Taliban has rallied to the defense and my guess is you are one more comment away from damnation. Well, at least you have your head and are merely a heretic and not an infidel. These folks are quite serious about everlasting life and none take their religious tenants with a “grain of salt”. They are all Hell bent on the road to salvation.
Chuck
March 26th, 2006 at 8:31 am
Carol, your post was logically, rationally, and thoughtfully written. You clearly stated that you do not know the reason for the murder, but that you had an oppressive experience with a church identifying itself by the same label as the one this family belonged to. Those readers who have written condemning responses to your post have shown their nature by the fact that they commented anonymously and defensively and indulged in name-calling and judgmental declarations. Your post was thought-provoking, sincere, and contained nothing that would inspire such vitriolic response from reasonable people.
March 26th, 2006 at 8:50 am
Joan, don’t worry. I’m not concerned about the people who wrote negative and JUDGMENTAL things condemning me for being judgmental. It’s funny that they don’t see the hypocrisy of what they’re doing. Of course they didn’t leave their email or URL. That’s why I pay little attention to what they write.
By the way, Jason, I appreciate your remarks. While you clearly disagree with me, you didn’t resort to name-calling and judgment, but rather you presently your argument rationally and respectfully. That’s how reasonable people interact. Thanks.
It’s an interesting and tragic case. Eventually we’ll find out why she murdered her husband.
March 27th, 2006 at 1:55 am
I suppose “they” includes me? And because I disagree with you, therefore I am judgmental and negative? And because I don’t leave my real name and email at a site that (1) belongs to someone I don’t personally know, and (2) is visited by people I don’t personally know and trust, then my post is automatically dismissed without merit? I don’t care much whether you dismiss my post or not, or call me judgmental or negative. I am not the one who has contributed to the proliferation of posts about the Winkler case and, in effect, disparaged, misinformed, and muddied the issues and circumstances surrounding the case with speculation and gossip. I am not one who has colored the conversation with one’s own lingering resentment and frustration with a particular congregation. It is one thing to have an open and honest discussion of the problems within the church. But your post, based upon your narrow experience, and one apparently quite influenced by your own arrogance and smugness is not one which I consider to be of much use ultimately. “Potbellies” during communion? Yes, catty, as you admit, and a sign you were out of touch with Christ’s teachings. A better focus during communion might have been Christ on the cross. We know we are saved when we love the brethren. Not too much love, for the brethren or anyone, in your gossipy post (and not as much reason or logic, either, despite your friendly readers’ assertions.)
Those who have come to your defense are to be commended - we all need friends who come to our defense - and they are certainly within their rights to do so. They might considering sharing a bit of that love and concern with the Winkler family.
March 27th, 2006 at 1:59 am
Well a very interesting discussion on this blog….first time vistor here. I am glad to see that there are some real people left out there. I am orginally from Idaho and have been transplanted here in Henderson, Tenn. Henderson is the home of the CoC school Freed-Hardeman University were the Winklers attended and Matthews father is still Prof. Selmer is just down the road a bit. I myself have attended CoC only a couple of times amd decided it wasn’t quite the flavor of christanity i prefered. However legalistical or oppressive to woman the church may seem i do whole heartedly agree with Jasons comments and dont push my wife to submit based on that one verse in the bible….even though i like to joke around about it. I am however concerned about how this case is shaping up. So far from Mary Winkler we have….I did it…I’m sorry….not guilty!!!! This to me is very odd. To me it seems that the Defense will be arguing not guilty by the way of Insanity due to the pressures and stresses of having to live a perfect life in an oppressive enviroment. This is a very scary notion!!!!! In todays society and culture what keeps any of us from a similar defense in the event of wrongdoing!!! Maybe i am just jumping to conclusions here but it seems that would give us all a liscence to Kill. Sure my wife and i continually cope with raising children in stressful and hostile enviroment and i would hope that we do not have to watch our backs (no pun intended) with each other. Is your spouse not supposed to be your one safe haven? Mary Winkler could face excommunication for divorce before facing murder 1 charges. The argument that she had no way out due to divorce not being an option holds little weight with me unless CoC frowns on divorce but advocates murder. Also forgiveness seems to be very important to her congeration,,, so she could not have been fearing eternal damnation for divorce and not for shooting her husband in the back. Instead this sounds to me a woman full of Anger wanting retaliation and retribution for some perceived wrong. I mourn for marriages across the country. Just some thoughts…
March 27th, 2006 at 2:09 am
Maybe everyone (;-) should re-read their previous posts under and in the all unshadowing light of Christs Love and Salvation, and in so may learn an important lesson. I direct this specially towards those that Profess to follow Christ and live having received his love and vow to pass it unto others, we would all do well to follow Christs example…. even Mary Winkler.
March 27th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
I think that spiritual abuse can happen in any church body. Controlling individuals will use whatever means they can to control others. I don’t know if the Church of Christ is a church body that can give controlling people a opportunity to abuse others, but it seems to be a church body that may lay the groundwork for this to occur. I do not think, though, this was Mrs. Winkler’s motive. I think it was a personal issue and not a church issue. There are other avenues she could have taken to leave this life. I will pray for her children. May God give them hope inspite of this terrible tragedy.
March 27th, 2006 at 1:10 pm
March 27th, 2006 at 8:05 pm
Carol - I didn’t realize this was posting my comments with your name. I just now saw that - I’m trying to get logged out - I’m wondering now if I’ve been posting as Carol all over the web! lol
March 27th, 2006 at 8:06 pm
Sorry - did it again - this is Beth
March 27th, 2006 at 9:34 pm
Comment by Jason — March 25, 2006 @ 8:41 pm
By the way, God does command wives to submit to their husbands. The problem occurs when men don’t love their wives as Christ loved the church. ..
———
Well, Let me see, Jason….
“God” commands women’s headcovering in worship….yet NADA….NONE in the COC’s!
Yet practriced without exception for 1500 Years…that’s One-Thousand-Five-Hundred!
Nothing was clearer to the early church and thereafter.
Pure Hypocrites.
I condemn the tactics upon women in CONSERVATIVE ranks of the COC for their hypocracy…They breed this type of “we are the only ones to interpret the “bible” mindset. Their Cultish indoctrination is relentless…Calls get made if you miss even one 3 3 per week church gatherings..Indoctrination “camps” for the young EVERY holiday period…and summer..Just like the JW’s…another “restoration” sect of the very same era in purely American protestantism.
I rode that horse for years and finally found out it was mule.
Bible only? BUNK.
You have to go outside the bible to EVER decide (by Tradition) what the books are to be in the bible…it has no scriptural Table of Contents!
Now, this woman was charged with 1ST DEGREE murder….not 2nd or 3rd or manslaughter. So, some degree of planning without the defense of fear for life or passion was involved.
God willing, I hope to see this through. But I think the COC membership may have been a coincidence and not the apparent cause.. I hold my judgement on this one.
Kim Wrote:
I don’t know if the Church of Christ is a church body that can give controlling people a opportunity to abuse others, but it seems to be a church body that may lay the groundwork for this to occur.
———
It is!
So, Now you know.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:29 am
I was a COC minister’s wife for over 30 years………………………it is life in a fishbowl!
March 28th, 2006 at 12:31 am
We’re now divorced….I couldn’t live up to HIS expectations!
March 28th, 2006 at 12:52 am
Are there any more women out there, like me, who have been married(now divorced) to COC ministers? I’d like to know how what caused their marriages to end in divorce like mine.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:32 am
Interesting discussions. I have great empathy and concern for both Matthew and Mary Winkler and their families and church. Obviously something was seriously wrong in their marriage. Thanks to everyone who has shared their ideas, beliefs, opinions and experiences. Anyone else?
March 28th, 2006 at 9:35 am
We have two CoC churches in our community, only one is non-instrumental. I think they are very congregational in polity (as are Lutherans), so not all are the same. I’ve never attended one, but I don’t think your experience would represent the whole group (they don’t call themselves a denomination, as I recall).
The CoC have no corner on denying women an official role in the church. Our ELCA congregation does not ordain women or have women preach from the pulpit, or teach mixed Sunday school classes, nor are they in leadership/administrative staff positions. We can read scripture and serve communion in services and sing in choir and quartets. However, as in many churches, the women’s activities at UALC are the most vital in the church and a structure to serve the women’s needs has grown up along side the “official” structure. In many churches the women are the “parachurch.”
It’s odd with all we hear about women’s rights, that the large growing churches seem to officially or just subtley keep women in the background, which in turn allows men to step forward into leadership which is what keeps the families coming into the church together.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:19 am
Norma, you bring up a good point. That was one positive thing I noted about the COC churches I attended - the men DID step up into leadership positions. They had to, or the church wouldn’t have been able to do anything since the women weren’t allowed to have any leadership.
I would think the COC you attended that has instrumental music would be the exception. At least that is the impression I get from reading about COC, my own experiences, and from what I’ve heard.
I would have to do some research about your last statement. It doesn’t seem to me that the large growing churches either officially or subtley keep women in the background. However, I don’t know. Would have to look into that and see.
I come from a background where women have become leaders in the church, and it seems very natural to me. I have known two women ministers who preach very Biblically-based sermons, are definitely not militant feminists and who are accepted and welcomed into those leadership roles by both men and women - even at little conservative country churches. They’re simply doing what God has called them to do.
Thanks for stopping by, Norma. Your comments are always helpful and thoughtful.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
Just a slight correction, Carol. I said I had NOT attended (or even visited) a CoC but there are 2 in our suburb. I attend http://www.UALC.org (web address). Other very large evangelical churches in Columbus where women do not serve in leadership are Grace Brethren, Vineyard, and World Harvest. There are large Baptist churches, too. There are probably others. UALC has about 5,000 members and 3 campuses, 11 services and is ELCA Lutheran.
March 28th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
If there are any former CoC members, please visit this site:
http://www.ex-churchofchrist.org
There is a support bulliten board for those that have left. We have discussed this topic.
March 28th, 2006 at 3:23 pm
Sorry Norma. I was hurrying and didn’t take time to check my comment before posting. Thanks again for your comments.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:31 pm
Christ loved the people of this world and the church so much that he gave his life for it. we are to love our wifes the same way. If we do this then our woman will all be treated with resepct and love. COC woman have much to say in the church and are well heard. You had a problem with the COC because you were not allowed to take over, iis what it looks like to me. WE all have a roll in life some think theirs is to be men when they are woman and some men think they should act like woman.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:00 pm
To Jim: I am a PK, raised in the CoC, and I saw my mother experience a lot of abuse–as well as myself and my younger siblings–from my father, who has also always been known as the “perfect” preacher, “fantastic person”, “full of charisma”; our family was known as “the perfect little preacher’s family”, and my mother was always in the background; nobody in the many congregations we were tacked onto the back of cared one BIT about my mother, or us children–until of course my younger brothers got old enough to start acting the “little men”, aping our father.
I have problems with the CoC because in many cases it acts like a denomination. It acts like it thinks it’s better than the God of the universe. I have problems with the CoC that I likely will never overcome because of the paternalistic arrogance of the weak men inside it. I have stayed with the CoC but I am ambivalent about it, to say the least. There are some very good things about it, but again, when men who are preachers within, and who are elders and deacons within, start putting themselves first instead of the Lord Jesus…problems will grow, and fester and putrify. Just like the current tragedy with Mary Winkler.
To Linda: I tried to get my mother to leave my father many times but she refused saying that it would “ruin his career”. Talk about brainwashing!!!
I am confident that Mary felt she had no other choice but to commit murder. That she had reached the end of her rope with her husband. I am confident that she knew, as a woman in the CoC (and where so many people, including other women, GUSHED over her husband all the time and marginalized her) that she could get no redress, no help. That divorce wasn’t an option, apparently, and that her husband knew nobody would believe her or help her. My own father would mock my mother, and myself in later years when I threatened to expose his wicked, abusive ways to others in the church. “Nobody will believe YOU,” he’d say and laugh. And you know what?
He was right. For years and years I’ve tried to “out” him and with absolutely no success, and this to people who have SAID they were my friends. Yeah, right. Like the people who say they forgive Mary…but I bet in private it’s a LOT different story…I bet it is. Been there and done that. Threw up on the teeshirt.
Nobody has believed me–except my fellow PKs in the CoC. Because we all have similar stories to tell…very similar to the one that drove Mary to the act of murder. I would bet money if I had any to bet that Mary’s life was — bless her heart–extremely similar to what my mother went thru, what I went thru, what so many of my PK friends have gone thru. If we don’t find out here and now, we will find out at the Judgment Day just what was so horrible that drove her to shoot her husband.
Mr. Jim sounds like he is part of the problem, part of why Mary Winkler got to the desperate straits she reached, and sounds like he would be one of my father’s most intiimate companions.
(Note to Jim: The above is NOT a compliment.)
Just Another PK
March 29th, 2006 at 8:50 am
Yes, we all have rolls in life. I like mine with a little butter and apricot preserves. Sorry, Jim - just couldn’t resist. I make typos all the time myself.
Anyone who knows me knows I didn’t want to take over the church. I’m a rather shy type of person. It was just silly, though, when they were trying to get people to teach an adult Sunday school class, that women were not even considered. Despite what COC people say, their religion is not Bible-based - except in a pick-and-choose fashion. And all that stuff about treating women with love and respect - actions speak louder than words. Sure, there are many people in the COC who have wonderful, reciprocal marriages. However, the belief system is one that appeals to and even encourages those who would abuse their wives and children.
March 29th, 2006 at 9:31 am
You are absolutely correct! Right on target! It seems to me that the men who respond to you are all yahoos who don’t have a clue about women. They want to be in control… You and I both know that is never gonna happen.
LadyBug
March 29th, 2006 at 6:48 pm
March 29th, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Is Anyone Searching for Anything Other Than Why Mary Winkler Killed Her Husband?…
I am amazed that a huge majority of my last 100 referers to this blog have been for searches about Mary Winkler. And, this all before the authorities reveal the motive for the killing.
That said, …
March 29th, 2006 at 8:10 pm
I have been a member of the church of Christ all my life. I have been in churches that have a lot of the characteristics that have been mentioned(no instrumental music, women only teaching Sunday school, etc.), but I did not feel that I was oppressed in any way. I am an outspoken woman, and I did not feel that only by being in the pulpit did I have a say. In reference to hypocrisy, I have to say that I have never known ANY church to not have any hypocrites. We are human with human thoughts and human decisions. If you find a church that is able to follow everything in the Bible, let us all know. All churches pick and choose which verses they believe to be more important. I do not believe that it is wrong to have instrumental music which is why I have chosen to go to a church of Christ that chose to have more than one service where members may choose according to their preference. I guess that I feel a need to defend the church to which I belong, but I know it is not necessary. I do not believe there is a correlation between this woman being the wife of a cofC preacher and her choice to commit murder. However, I too am interestd to see the motivation behind the act….if one is ever given.
March 29th, 2006 at 11:09 pm
This all around is a very unfortunate event. It is tragic for the deceased husband, for the wife that is now detained by the police and the children who are now forced in the middle of what they once thought of as a great home. I think it is wrong to say that his wife snapped simply because of their religion. You say that you have been to the Church of Christ before. However, one thing that you fail to mention is that while all of them claim to go only by the Bible, out of this group there are many different congregations. The Church of Christ has no government like Assembly of God or others who have a central government. Therefore, they one that you visit may be completeley different from the Church of Christ down the road. Many do not understand this. Many believe that if you have seen one, then you have seen them all. I have been congregations just like the one the Winklers attended. That congregation is nothing like you have described above. Each Church of Christ is autonomous of each other and because of this there are different opinions in some congregations contrary to the will of God. Perhaps you would be interested in corresponding with me in this regards. I would enjoy speaking with you.
March 29th, 2006 at 11:30 pm
“Comment by Jason — March 25, 2006 @ 8:41 pm
By the way, God does command wives to submit to their husbands. The problem occurs when men ”
(Comment deleted by blog owner… no profanity/blasphemy allowed here)
Organised religion is a cancer that needs to be wiped off the face of the earth…
screwballs leading sheeple
Prior to christianity and islam, the predominant religion , at least in much of europe was paganism, a religion where in certain respects, women held postions at the apex of the pyramid. Many “witches” (a term applied by the church) held special healing powers and women were recognised for there intuitive abilties. Christianity as well as islam are strictly male dominated..islam uses terror and violence to get people to submit.
when one person represses another, they indirectly limit what they can expereince in life..pur malignancy
If you continue to let organised religion put you in a state of patholgical trance (as well as the cultural mores of our dysfunctional soceity) you will never become fully human, just a cultural mammal who becomes less and less of a mammal every day
March 30th, 2006 at 7:25 am
Christianity, for the most part, has changed with the times with MOST churches giving women equal opportunities for service within the church. Some congregations obviously have not changed with the times.
Father Grigory - if you choose to leave further comments, please don’t use vulgarity. You can make your point without it.
Becky, thanks for your remarks. I agree that there is not a church anywhere without some hypocrisy present - because we’re all human. We strive to do God’s will and to live by His principles, but we fail many times.
Robert, it has been mentioned a couple times in the comments to this post that the Church of Christ has no central governing body - that each church is a separate entity. Thus, each church has its own rules/guidelines. I only attended three different Church of Christ churches - in two different states.
Thanks to everyone who has commented. I think the discussion is helpful in understanding each other. Regardless of what Mary Winkler’s motive was, I think the speculation about it is not a bad thing.
March 30th, 2006 at 8:37 am
Christianity is about Jesus and the cross. Jesus died and rose again for us and He has given us heaven freely with no string attached. This truth is for all men and women in all cultures around the world. We are no longer under the law because Jesus fullfilled it. Legalism is a cancer and can affect almost any church found on this planet. Mrs. Winkler may have been affected by the legalism that her church body promoted. It may have caused her to feel suffocated and without the ability to escape.I don’t know. It seems that she did something totally out of character. This woman had some tough issue going on in her life. I will continue to pray for Mary and her children.
March 30th, 2006 at 10:11 am
Got here by way of a Google blog search. I just wrote on the same issue. I grew up in the Baptist church, which is strikingly familiar to what you report about the COC.
March 30th, 2006 at 11:39 am
Geez, where to begin…
I also grew up attending churches of Christ…very conservative ones, I might add. I attended a church of Christ affilliated college, Oklahoma Christian, and continued attending churches of Christ. I have lived in many different places, and have seen many different “flavors” of churches of Christ, including some where I almost went back outside to see if I had read the sign correctly. I have also attended non-church of Christ congregations (I hate to use the term “churches,” since we are all part of “the church” if we are believers). Right now we (my wife, me and our 7 kids) attend a very “progressive” congregation. Do we have women preachers? No. Do we have women deacons or elders? No. Do we use instrumental music? No, but our elders made a public statement last year that it is a matter of tradition, not doctrine.
Now, concerning how women are treated…spousal abuse does not run along denominational lines (by the way, when I use the word “denomination,” it means what it means…”a type, a delineation”). Anyone who says that Mary Winkler must have killed her husband is assuming WAY too much that they don’t know. Maybe they ARE right…but we don’t know that for sure. But what if he had been a Baptist preacher? An Assembly of God? Buddhist??? How would people have reacted? I don’t think my wife would say she is abused. She went to college where I did; she got her BSE and taught Special Ed for 7 years. When our 3rd and 4th children were born (twins), she decided she wanted to stay home. That was HER decision…trust me, I was worried about the drop in our income, but God took care of us. Now, she homeschools our kids.
Those of you who are painting with such broad strokes about church of Christ members need to step back, take a deep breath and look at the bigger picture. For some yet unknown reason, Mary Winkler’s husband was shot in the back with a shotgun blast from 2-3 feet away. She has confessed to doing it. It’s a HORRIBLE crime, and 3 little girls now have to deal with it for the rest of their lives. This is NOT a church of Christ story…it is a human tragedy.
March 30th, 2006 at 11:42 am
I just realized I left out a couple of words in my post…
…Anyone who assumes that Mary Winkler must have killed her husband —because he was abusive—
Sorry…I was thinking faster than I was typing!
March 30th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Ephisians 5:21 “Submit to one another out of reverance for God” is not to be ignored. Christians are taught to submit to each other, women to their husbands, all Christians to the elders of a congregation, the elders and everyone else to Jesus. The problems come when people try to force others to submit. Children are to obey or submit to their parents, but the parents are to love and not provoke them to wrath. Husbands love their wives sacrificially, “as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it.” Since we all submit to one another, sometimes the husbands submit to the wives. The point is that we all treat each other right, but sometimes a decision has to be made that everyone doesn’t agree on. Who makes that choice? The one whom you are submitting to. The very very important thing to remember is that the action of submission is VOLUNTARY. It is a mindset of the person submitting and is not something to be forced on someone. A husband has no right to demand submission and is not accountable to God for the actions of his wife. Is she refuses to submit to his leadership, that is between her and God. He can not force submission. Nowhere in scripture is he given permission to do this. My father is a church of Christ minister and he lives his life this way, as does my own husband.
March 30th, 2006 at 12:30 pm
Good point…he can’t DEMAND it, but he can definitely EXPECT it. You are so blessed to have grown up in a household where everyone “got it.” The whole concept of submission is so misunderstood by non-Christians, and sadly, my a majority of Christians as well. I am NOT the “boss” of my wife. I am the head of my family, as Christ is the head of the church.
And you are also right…”husbands, submit to your wives…” How many men even know that, let alone practice it?
March 30th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
I am a member of the church of christ in Texas and your info. is very wrong. Women are in praise teams that can go on stage. Women can say a prayer in class if they choose. Not sure where your church under a rock was.
March 30th, 2006 at 2:30 pm
[...] I wrote a few days ago about this case and that post received many comments. Quite incredible the number of comments and the amount of traffic this one story has generated. It is a story filled with questions, incredulity, and controversy. [...]
March 31st, 2006 at 10:02 am
I was glad to discover this blogsite. Your personal experience with COC jives with my own memories of the COC as a child, where my father’s family was heavily invested, not so far from the southern Tennessee parsonage where this unfortunate murder occurred.
I am not a member of the COC and never have been, but my whole life has been affected by the curious ideology of this organization because my father was raised in its beliefs. One thing you didn’t mention is the *emotional abuse* of wives that men can easily fall into as a result of the transparent devaluation of women. The marriage vow “obey” takes on new meaning in the context of COC family life. As you say so aptly, they pick and choose: the “honor” part of the marriage vow is not practised, or perhaps it is re-interpreted as “obey.” There is no equality of treatment: women can easily be mistreated, and it’s sanctioned by the COC’s ideology.
It’s my opinion that the COC is a type of CULT. A cult demands compliance in all aspects of daily life, without question. It is an unorthodox version of Christianity that purports to be “more Christian” and “more pure” than any other type of Christianity. A cult invades people’s private lives and attempts to control them. I believe this cult, the COC, can lead to socially marginal behaviors and beliefs. All of the talk about “loving” and “caring” is a smokescreen for a cult of destructive male-centered brainwashing and mind control that is destined to produce intense family stresses, especially for wives.
Your observation of the pot-bellied men in church is, from my own memory, quite accurate. The majority of people who attend COC, it seemed to me from my own observations, were grossly overweight individuals. My guess is that low self-esteem and neediness are endemic in this population, perhaps as a result of the emotional abuse in the home.
Every last person I ever knew who was in any way connected with COC had serious issues with physical and / or emotional abuse, and the majority were stuck in life-long destructive relationships with private lives reeking with shame. Many of them pass the syndrome along to their children, who continue to pass it along to their children, long after they have stopped attending the COC.
When I was a child I had the feeling we were living in a Nazi concentration camp. It was daily denigration and abuse of my mother, who was *not* COC but Baptist, and daily physical and emotional abuse of all the children. We kept it a secret. My mother kept up a front. Had she divorced my father, she would have lost us, because he had a job, and she didn’t. We meant everything to her. Had she told relatives, they would have dismissed her remarks as mean or crazy. Had she called authorities into the picture, my father would have used his charm, education and financial success to talk his way out of it, and probably none of us would have spoken against him, to maintain the secrecy of the shame in our family. Anyone reading these words who has experienced such a family situation will recognize the dilemma we were all in.
It is my suspicion (and my suspicion only) that Mary Winkler was in a similar situation. Somewhere along the way, she realized that the lives they were leading were a sham, and she had no one to talk with about her concerns who would support her (including church members, family members, neighbors, or social services people). Perhaps her mother would have given her some support, but she had died just two years earlier, and Mary was all alone in her grief and her frustration. Perhaps we will never know what the straw was that broke the camel’s back.
Anybody can go over the edge, even a very good person. A cult can turn rational people into confused lunatics who obey unethical religious dogma without question, and maintain the secrecy of their confusion and shame, making them think they are leading the “right” kind of life. The COC is a cult that produces secretly abusing families and maintains them in the shackles of intense shame and fear.
March 31st, 2006 at 11:48 am
Most incredible blog comments I have ever seen. Never have so many commented so much about so little with such meager knowledge. So many people willing to make this killing (we do not know if i is murder) justifiable without all but the sketchiest facts and almost no evidence. And the Church of Chirsit crtiques have a little more to offer from a mountain of ignorance. But honest ignorance. Over the last 50 years since I left Ortkodox Judaism for hyperOrthodox Christianity, we have seen 90% of the congregations fit the negatives evolve to a little over half. At MIT, the congregation has a woman minister, songleaders, communion servers and teachers of both sexes. Let’s please wait to discuss this tragic famly and event and pray for them. Ther will be plenty of time for harangues and vitriol. There always is.
March 31st, 2006 at 12:14 pm
Wow! All that I can say is wow. It seems that the cofC is being condemned on so many levels. I just want to say that I don’t devalue any of your experiences, but you have to understand that not all cofC’s are like that. I am sorry that these bad things happened, but perhaps we need to put more focus on the individuals instead of indicting the church they attend. My church is not a cult. It is a loving group of people that are certainly not perfect, nor do they profess to be. My husband and I both attend the church. He does not abuse me either physically or emotionally or expect me to bow at his every whim. That is a gross misuse of the word submit. I know that there are some hurting people out there, but please don’t use your particular story to misrepresent the cofC. What you are putting out there is not what I’ve commonly seen, and I’ve attended MANY over my 30 years. It also fuels the fire of hatred that others may have for any church at all. What happened is tragic, but don’t blame the whole cofC.
March 31st, 2006 at 4:20 pm
This has nothing to do with the Winklers but condemning the ch of Christ. I chose the church and attend a very conservative congregation. I love my life and my family and would not want to be any where else. We have an awesome preacher who preaches from the scripture and the scripture only. Not all churches are the same. I do not feel abused by the church or my husband and read my Bible to understand the scripture which is what we should all be doing.
March 31st, 2006 at 6:32 pm
Dear Carol,
I hope that you won’t let any negative feedback to eliminate smile from your face. Although it is clear that other people may have different priorities and feelings inside the Church of Christ, for me, your experience matters, too. It is not surprising that some of the people from the Church won’t like what you wrote.
All the best
Lubos
March 31st, 2006 at 9:22 pm
I agree that the comments here are incredible. However, most are from real experiences that people have had - including mine. Speculating here on the cause does nothing to help or harm Mary Winkler or affect the case in any way. I was shopping today and saw the story made the front cover of the current PEOPLE magazine. The story is front-and-center and our discussion here has nothing to do with it. It is only normal and sensible to try to make sense of something that is so horrific. And it is helpful to see all sides of an issue. My experiences at the COC were not all negative at all. There were many fine people, and they were all very welcoming and nice to me. My speculations are based on the underlying theme/beliefs that I observed in person.
So comments of all kinds are welcome here (well, except for the profane and blasphemous - which I will delete). I take no offense as long as you are expressing what you feel politely and respectfully.
April 1st, 2006 at 6:51 am
I hadn’t even read all of the posts above when I entered mine. My first thought about COC was “CULT” and now I see that lots of others have come up with the same impression, “CULT,” including Nancy Grace. Members of cults are unable to see their own predicament because they are too immersed in the brainwashing and dogma. The nature of cults is to keep their dirty secret under wraps, although they themselves do not recognize their indoctrination as dirty or a secret. They usually consider themselves “special” and “above” everybody else. People who are locked into a PACT OF SHAME are helpless to see their own predicament.
My guess is that Mary Winkler had tremendous multiple life stresses she was dealing with (post-partum depression, three kids to look after, an itinerant job, the loss of her mother, school, impression-management in the glass-house parsonage), as so many people have noted, plus the burden of keeping the domestic emotional abuse a secret.
The reason she isn’t talking, and isn’t making any move to have a hearing or get out on bail, is because she is still hoping to keep the abuse secret. She didn’t shoot her husband for nothing. Something, some series of behavioral events, led her to feel he was a MONSTER who had to be terminated in order for her three children to have a decent life. If he wasn’t a pedophile working on the kids sexually, then he must have been emotionally abusing not only Mary, but also absuing the kids in order to hurt Mary and keep her in line. In many cases of emotional abuse, a father will abuse the kids in order to maintain control over his wife and maintain the PACT OF SHAME.
I am familiar with that modus operandi. The father abuses the kids, and the mother is helpless to do anything. He probably cited verses from the Bible when he abused them, something Mary would have had a hard time coming to terms with — it was a case of COGNITIVE DISSONANCE: Mary believed in the Bible like any Christian, but she also believed that abuse was wrong like any mother would, and there was no way she could resolve the two truths. The COC creates this kind of COGNITIVE DISSONANCE in its followers. It’s a CRAZY-MAKING form of brainwashing.
I am glad to know Nancy Grace feels the same way I do about COC being a CULT — she is a charismatic woman, and I am glad to see important commentators like her taking a stand. It can help save some lives from destruction if they hear her speak the words on TV.
COC is a CULT, just as perverse as Anton LaVey’s CHURCH OF SATAN. In the case of Church of Satan, at least they acknowledge that their values are not mainstream. In the case of COC, they are parading around as “holier than thou” and more Christian than Christian. COC is a freaking CULT, and it’s time the public finds out about it. It was wrong for Mary Winkler to pull the trigger on her husband, but I can understand why she did it given the COC context and its CULT practices and beliefs, and its PACT OF SHAME.
April 1st, 2006 at 9:10 am
I think we need to make a distinction between a sect and a cult. I think the COC is more like a sect. It abides by a strict dogma and set themselves apart from other chuch bodies. When a person leaves a cult, they get back their family, when a person leaves a sect, they lose their family and their support system.
April 1st, 2006 at 10:21 am
Well, they can be both. Just take a look at the Oxford English Dictionary definitions for each word. I believe both words can be applied appropriately to COC:
sect –
1. (Obsolete usages)
A class or kind (of persons) — (obsolete usage)
2. The human race — (obsolete usage)
April 1st, 2006 at 10:51 am
Sorry, my post took off before I was finished:
Well, they can be both. Just take a look at the Oxford English Dictionary definitions for each word. I believe both words can be applied appropriately to COC:
sect –
1. (Obsolete usages)
a. A class or kind (of persons)
b. A religious order
c. The (human) race
d. Sex (now only in illiterate usages)
2. (Obsolete)
a. Distinctive costume (of a class or order)
3. (Obsolete)
a. Body of followers or adherents
4. A religious following; adherence to a particular religious teacher or faith
a. Applied to any of the main religions of the world, as Christianity, Judaism or Islam; the principles, or the adherents collectively, of these faiths (obsolete usage)
b. A system of belief or observance distinctive of one of the parties or schools into which the adherents of a religion are divided; sometimes spec. a system differing from what is deemed the orthodox tradition; a heresy (obsolete usage) — A body of persons who unite in holding certain views differing from those of others who are accounted to be of the same religion; a party or school among the professors of a religion; sometimes applied spec. to parties that are regarded as heretical, or at least as deviating fro the general tradition.
c. IN MODERN USE — commonly applied to a separately organized religious body, having its distinctive name and its own places of worship; a ‘denomination.’ Also, in a narrower sense, one of the bodies separated from the Church.
(there are additional meanings that don’t relate to this issue)
cult –
1. (Obsolete usage) Worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings
2. a. A particular form or system of religious worship; especially in reference to its external rites and ceremonies.
b. Now frequently used attributively by writers on cultic ritual and the archaeology of primitive cults.
3. Devotion or homage to a particular person or thing, now especially as paid by a body of professed adherents or admirers.
DRAFT ADDITIONS (to the Oxford English Dictionary) SEPTEMBER 2004:
Cult –
Designating cultural phenomena with a strong, often enduring appeal or a relatively small audience; (also) designating this appeal or audience, or any resultant success; fringe, non-mainstream.
A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
(Quoted from the Oxford English Dictionary, available online through subscription)
My views:
So, COC is a “sect” in that it is a separately organized religious body.
And in my opinion, COC is also a “cult,” because it is a relatively small group, having a particular form of religious worship with reference to its “external rites and ceremonies” (e.g.their ritual practices are characterized by socially sanctioned taboos on musical instruments, dancing and alcohol, extreme gender hierarchy, female silence, male voices, etc.), small audience, “fringe,” non-mainstream, and regarded by others as being “strange” or even sinister.
I belive the term “cult” is even more relevant to COC than is “sect.”
COC is a weird perversion of Christ’s message and of the Bible. They pick and choose to support their own peculiar practices and beliefs, which can produce sinister results in the community and family. QED — Mary Winkler, the perfect wife, shot her perfect husband to death for no apparent reason, the reasons being closely guarded within the PACT of SHAME and SILENCE of this fringe religious cult.
April 1st, 2006 at 11:26 am
If you doubt that COC is a “cult,” just search online for “cult” and you will find many articles describing the attributes of a religious cult. Just one for example:
International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA) website: http://www.csj.org/
Cultic Studies: Information about Cults and Psychological Manipulation
Information on cults, cultic groups, psychological manipulation, psychological abuse, spiritual abuse, brainwashing, mind control, thought reform, abusive churches, extremism, totalistic groups, new religious movements, alternative and mainstream religions, group dynamics, exit counseling, recovery, and practical suggestions for those affected by or interested in these subjects
ARTICLE: “Dysfunctional Churches”
http://www.csj.org/infoserv_articles/enroth_ronald_dysfunctional_churches.htm
Ronald Enroth, Ph.D.
Cult Observer, 1992, Volume 9, No. 4
Excerpts:
“As behavioral scientists remind us all too often, that most basic of social institutions—the family—is increasingly subject to frailty and failure. The label that is currently popular for unhealthy families is “dysfunctional.†Unfortunately, sociologists of religion (as well as many ex‑members) know that some churches are also dysfunctional, even to the point of being spiritually abusive. If truth in advertising standards could be applied to religion, some churches would be required to display a sign reading: “Warning: this church could be harmful to your spiritual and psychological health.â€
“Sadly, spiritual and pastoral abuse is more prevalent than most people believe. Like child abuse, it often goes undetected, or else it is strongly denied. Spiritual abuse is inflicted by persons who are accorded respect and honor in society by virtue of their positions of religious authority and leadership. When such leaders violate the sacred trust they have been given, when they abuse their authority, and when they misuse their ecclesiastical office to control their congregations, the results can be catastrophic.”
“What are the hallmarks of unhealthy, aberrant churches? The key indicator is control‑oriented leadership, ministers who have a need to “lord it over the flock.†Abusive leaders demand submission and unquestioning loyalty. The person who raises uncomfortable questions or does not “get with the program†is cast aside. Guilt, fear, and intimidation are used to manipulate and control vulnerable members, especially those who have been taught to believe that questioning their pastor is comparable to questioning God.”
ANOTHER ARTICLE: “Cults: Questions and Answers”
Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.
Q. What is a Cult?
“Contemporary cults, then, are likely to exhibit three elements to varying degrees:
* members’ excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment to the identity and leadership of the group,
* exploitative manipulation of members; and
* harm or the danger of harm to members, their families and/or society.
“These groups tend to:
* dictate sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel;
* claim a special, exalted status for themselves and/or their leaders; and
* intensify their opposition to and alienation from society at large.
My views:
The COC has “charismatic leaders” who reinforce the group’s beliefs and values, which involve management and social control of members’ behavior, thoughts, actions, and the expression of feelings. The COC claims a special exalted status, and they are a “fringe” group in society. Matthew Winkler was such a “charismatic leader” and a proponent of COC dogma. His wife was bound into a pact of silence due to COC dogma; her actions, thoughts, behaviors, and feelings were managed and controlled by her husband, as positively sanctioned by COC dogma.
In many cults, people are required to abandon their old ways and their own feelings, and are required to follow the cult dogma. In some cults, a follower must give up their worldly possessions, or at least a portion of them, to the cult community. In some cases, this can also involve cutting communications with members of the family who frown on the cult. A follower who attempts to depart from the dogma of a cult may find they are cut off from further communication and support of the community — as would have happened if Mary Winkler had gotten a divorce, or broke her silence about her feelings and thoughts and spoken out. So far, she has attempted to keep the secret of what led her to pull the trigger. She is still in the thrall of the COC cult.
April 1st, 2006 at 7:09 pm
Interesting speculation. Has anyone ever thought that maybe this guy was abusing his daughters which drove the mother to kill him?
April 1st, 2006 at 9:26 pm
I think abuse of one of the children or all of the children has got to be an important part of the puzzle. One of the articles I read described Mary’s afternoon that day, substituting at school — including the older daughter’s class, and she seemed irritated with her daughter, while talking animatedly and nervously on her cell phone and pacing. My suspicion is it was the oldest child. Perhaps Mary had a final showdown with him in the bedroom because that’s where it all happened. It’s important to remember that the shooting took place in the bedroom — that’s symbolic. She could have shot him in the kitchen, the hallway, the living room or anyplace that people normally hang out in the middle of the day. But in the late afternoon, he was in the bedroom. The children did not see the shooting according to reports. So she must have wanted to confront him in private about a very private matter that the children shouldn’t hear about, probably with the door closed. My guess is she had the rifle hidden so that she could use it when she had the opportunity, if she felt it necessary. She probably tried talking with him about the abuse and he refused to listen, turned his back on her, and she went over the edge. She was taking antidepressants, and that could have been another factor. The alternate scenario is that he was sexually abusing one of the daughters in the bedroom that afternoon, with everybody else there, and she caught them together — but this doesn’t make sense to me and I think the first scenario is the way it happened.
I suspect (and this is pure speculation) that one of the daughters had been telling her mother about the abuse in the days preceding the shooting, and that explains why Mary seemed irritable with the daughter in school. She was probably talking with her husband on the cell phone about the situation and he was refusing to acknowledge her concerns, that’s why she was pacing. The abuse had probably occurred multiple times before, and Mary had probably tried to discuss it with him before, and he probably invalidated her each time. Mary became panicked and went over the edge.
Who could she talk to? Her mother was dead. She had no real support. She was fearful of the COC community finding out — and still is! Her husband had a lot of social credit with the COC community, and they would have supported his story, not hers. She was a cornered animal with nowhere to turn, no friend, no support. So long as he remained alive, she would have to live with the HORROR and SHAME growing inside her, with no relief in sight, and her children in danger of ongoing abuse. A mother’s strongest urges and motivations derive from her children’s welfare, and my guess is that she acted in the children’s defense. She had to kill him, because he was a MONSTER. This is pure speculation, and I bet I’m right. I can’t think of any other reason why this would have happened the way that it did.
Mary Winkler is a good person who did a bad thing: she was pushed to the edge through ongoing emotional abuse, with no help from anybody, and with her children in danger, likely from sexual molestation, and almost certainly from emotional abuse of the worst degree.
The idea that it was premeditated: I think she had a plan in mind that she would try to confront him one more time, and if it didn’t work, then that was it. And once again he invalidated her and humiliated her. She went off the deep end. In that sense, I do not think it was “premeditated.” She plead “not guilty” to first degree murder. I believe it was a murder of passion. He drove her over the edge. JMHO
April 2nd, 2006 at 12:41 am
I have my own beliefs - as I wrote in the post. I believe there was abuse going on and Mary felt there was no other way to protect herself and/or her children from the abuse. .. unless she is bi-polar and was having a delusional episode. Other than that, I just can’t see a mother killing the father of her children. I’d really like to find some statistics comparing abuse in families of COC as opposed to other protestant denominations.
April 2nd, 2006 at 10:32 am
carol, I do, too. I do not think she is bi-polar, but a woman in shock. She was protecting her daughters. I know she was doing whatever she could. My hope for anyone in an abusive situation to find someone safe to confide in and leave the dangerous situation.
April 2nd, 2006 at 6:04 pm
[...] Last week I wrote about my speculations concerning the murder of Matthew Winkler. In that post, I mentioned that Mary Winkler might possibly have been dealing with some issues stemming from the Church of Christ’s oppression of women - that maybe the COC’s demeaning (my opinion) policies towards women had something to do with her resorting to something so extreme and out of character. [...]
April 2nd, 2006 at 9:25 pm
Has anyone ever lived in a foreign country and seen obnoxious americans come in and give a bad name to what we feel our country represents. Unfortunately every person is different and our individual behaviour is not necesarily because of what race we are, what country we were raised in, or often what church we attend… Our behaviour is because of a personal choice we make to respond to our personal situation.
My brother and I grew up in the same environment yet reacted very differently. Our parents got a divorce, I was sexually abused - yet my brother is sitting in prison with a life sentence and I am a Cristian missionary in Mexico. Go figure. I love my brother. He is a great person who just made some really bad decisions. It was not the fault of his upringing… it was his decision.
Mary Winkler made her decision. This decision was not because of her church. When are we going to stop looking for a way out and instead make people own up to their bad decisions. She will have to face the consecuences, like my brother has, and this is a tragedy. The poor daughters are the ones who will have to suffer most.
I am a member of the church of Christ and I am proud to say so. The church is a loving family who only is trying to do God’s will in a very difficult and aggressive world. I am a woman and have NEVER felt oppressed in the church. I am married to a minister and have NEVER felt like I am stuck with no way out. Yes, it is difficult to be in a fish bowl, but life itself is hard no matter where you are and Jesus never promised a bed of roses.
Do we condemn all catholics because of one pedofile priest? Do we condemn all televangelists because of one Tammy Fay Baker situation? The list can go on. Is there any religious group who has a perfect record of no scandals? Even Jesus’ closest followers had a Judas! Does that make them a cult or a sect or something of the sort?
Please, don’t judge the church by its members or you will never get to see the truth. The church of Christ simply means it is the church purchased by His blood. If you have obeyed his gospel - you are a member of this church, whether or not you congregate in a building with those words written on the wall. Also, you can congregate with Christians and still be wallowing in sin and commit terrible things. Being a member of the church, a Christian, even a minister or his wife doesn’t mean you are above to the influences of satan and the temptation of sin. Only Jesus was perfect and we can only try to live up to his example and follow in His steps.
April 2nd, 2006 at 11:01 pm
People do not make decisions in a vacuum. People are products of their culture. People’s decisions are often shaped by their religious beliefs. Some religious dogma is more controlling than others. COC (in the South) is a highly controlling belief system — it regulates many areas of a follower’s daily life, including their dress, their thoughts, their dancing, their ability to speak, and so forth. In southern COC churches, men often feel they Rule the Roost, and women must kow-tow. “Spare the rod and spoil the child” is a common feature of the culture of COC. So is emotional abuse. Many of the people in my family were raised in a COC community and the abuse is transmitted from generation to generation. It is a culture, a way of life, a belief system, that shapes the lives and thoughts and behaviors and the decisions of its followers.
I do not believe that Christ’s blood “purchased” the COC — this seems like patent heresy to me. Christ is not COC property, nor is his blood. Such a notion is clear evidence of cult thinking. What’s important is Christ’s message, which is for all the world and for anybody who wants it, freely given, and not purchased or possessed by any particular church, and certainly not what some odd group drummed up to make its cult followers feel special.
April 3rd, 2006 at 5:33 am
April 3rd, 2006 at 6:57 am
It appears to me, Rhian, that you have a personal problem with the cofC, but I don’t know what facts you are dealing with. I live in the south and attend the cofC. I have attended a liberal cofC and a conservative cofC. The two are very different, but they work within the same belief system. One church has instruments even though many do not. We are allowed to speak our minds….just not preferably in the middle of a sermon. No one has ever in either place told us what to wear. I don’t know where you got that information. When I was growing up, I wore jeans to church instead of shorts, but that was my parents’ decision…not the church’s. I guess a long time ago dancing was not “preferable”, but that hasn’t been the case for years. I am 30 and never grew up that way. “Spare the rod and spoil the child” is not what I would call common. My parents never even spanked me. I think the part that bothered me the most is that you all feel that we are brainwashed. We apparently are too immersed in the brainwashing to understand that we are all brainwashed. Are you serious?? I am not abused in any way by my husband, nor by my father growing up. People also keep commenting on the fact that Mary Winkler may have felt that no one would believe her in her church if she said she was abused. I don’t see why. I have seen three preachers who had to leave because of some kind of abuse. In those cases people clearly believed the women involved. Again, I just feel that there should probably be more information given before people decided to blame their church. That is so ridiculous. There are bad people everywhere….in every church…in every pulpit.
April 3rd, 2006 at 12:39 pm
I too am a member of the church of Christ. I am not going to say anything that hasn’t already been said except for maybe one point. Christ died for all. If you think that the church of Christ is the only group that takes scripture out of context you are extremely mal-informed. We live as New Testament Christians. Where in the New Testament does it mention worshipping God with mechanical instruments. If you mention Revelation then I will tell you that is talking about Heaven. Revelation is a symbollic book and you cannot take everything written there as what is exactly to be done or understood. Next, if you follow one part of the Old Testament ( using mechanical instruments) why aren’t you doing the rest of what is said in the Old Testament. Are you sacrificing? Are you following all the rules from Leviticus about how things are to be cleansed (human and otherwise)? Maybe if we all read the Bible more then we could actually discuss why we do what we do instead of making senseless assumptions. And no, I’m not saying I know the whole Bible or that I’m holier than anyone here or elsewhere. Back to the starting topic of this whole thing, the Winkler murder is a very sad happening, but maybe this can help to spread God’s word from those who don’t know about the Bible and want to know more about it.
April 3rd, 2006 at 12:42 pm
Another quick post about another topic mentioned: Abuse keeps popping up in posts here. That is a possibility but it has not been proven yet. What if Mary was suffering from postpartum depression? Or what if she is taking the blame for someone else? Just because she took the blame for it does not mean that she actually did shoot Matt.
April 3rd, 2006 at 2:41 pm
Before you accuse, do your research. I am a member of the church of Christ; and I suggest to you that we do try to follow the Bible as best we can. Since each congregation is autonomous, some have drifted way off of what the ’standard’ church of Christ congregation teaches; so don’t judge all by the light of one.
The ‘churches of Christ’ teach the Bible alone; because God wrote it - He said everything He intended to say; and purposefully hushed–So, who are we to change (add, remove, alter) anything He has commanded?
In response to the origional post:
Instrumental music: When you make an agreement with someone, and both of you do your part, then it is completed. In the same way, the Old Testament law was fulfilled through Jesus. Thus, it was no longer the governing law. Therefore, the New testament law is what we are under today. In the New testament, we see no record of the church ever worshiping with instruments. In addition, this fits the pattern - in the old testament, everything was a physical copy and shadow of Heavenly things to come: a physical temple, a high priest, animals were sacrificed, and physical instruments of music in their worship. In the New testament, we are a part of the church; through the real sacrifice - Jesus - for “the blood of goats and bulls cannot wash away sins” (Heb. 10); and we worship with the real ‘instrument’ - “…Singing and making melody with your HEART to the Lord” (Ephesians 5:19)
Women in the church:
Women are not to take a position of authority over men in worship, because woman was taken out of man; that is what the Bible says (I Corinthians 11) God created us that way: Children submit to your father and mother; Women are to submit to their husbands; who have been commanded to love their wives in return. Men are to submit to Christ - it’s not a dictatorship; we are all going to be held accountable on the day of Judgement for our own actions. (Are you ready?)
(Btw, one guy leads singing - he just sings the melody; it’s not a problem, everybody sings the four parts.)
Not a cult; a family - if you had a big family get-together, and someone was a no-show, would you call to see how they were doing? God designed His church as a family - God the Father, Jesus our brother; we are all brothers and sisters if we do the Will of God. We look out for one another perhaps even more than genetic families do; because We are children of God; and for some, the only family they have.
We are all sinners who have been forgiven by Jesus; and we are all trying to do the same thing: Get to Heaven, and take as many people with us as we can. Welcome to the family of God. We want everyone - sin is sin in the eyes of God; no sin is ‘bigger’ than another. We have prison ministries; yes I have brothers and sisters in Christ who are in prison for life. God is in the business of forgiving and forgetting; not erasing consequences on earth for them.
Romans 6:23:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Acts 2:38:
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
I encourage you to ask questions about the church, but find answers - don’t just assume! Here are some websites I found that have been beneficial to me; perhaps you will benefit from them, as well:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/
http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/
http://www.searchtv.org/
http://www.christiancourier.com/
http://www.gbntv.org/
Again, I encourage you to ask questions; but find the answers, too. These sites should be of use to you in that, as well.
Always read the Bible - the more you read, the more you’ll know. Like anything, if you want to know more, you have to study it.
April 3rd, 2006 at 3:41 pm
“Women are not to take a position of authority over men in worship, because woman was taken out of man”
This is quite simply a Fundamentalist rationalization for male dominance and abuse of women.
Human evolution began millions of years before the Bible was written. The Bible is an imperfect, human-created, allegorical account of how the world works and God’s part in it. In the Beginning, there were Apes, and through Natural Selection, there came to exist Humans. And before Apes there were a couple Billion years of Life evolving on Planet Earth.
The earliest Humans were egalitarian hunters and gatherers; men and women treated one another as equals, because they were both valued equally in society. For 98% of human existence, humans worked to create rules that required people to share, cooperate, and reduce aggression. That was the basis of human success.
What made men and women unequal was not God, and not some Biblical story created by humans, but the greed of men. A few thousand years ago after farming was invented, the men began to fight one another over control of the land and men claimed all the important property for themselves. They began to place demands on women to produce male heirs. Women were relegated to breeder status, treated as less intelligent and less capable, made to be dependent upon men economically. In some places men lorded it over their women and abused them, telling them to kow-tow and shut up.
It is now the third millennium, and in some places, some men continue to think like this. The COC is a haven for males who think like this, and because gender inequality is institutionalized in the COC, it’s a place where women can easily be abused and be made to feel they have to keep quiet about it.
April 3rd, 2006 at 6:45 pm
[...] People continue to read and debate the post I wrote over a week ago about Mary Winkler’s killing of her husband, a Church of Christ minister. If you want to read that post or others, go here, here, and here. In the comments section, people have argued about what the Church of Christ believes or doesn’t believe and what it practices or doesn’t practice. There are strong and passionate feelings both pro and con. For the most part it has been a civilized discussion. I’ve only had to edit one comment that crossed the line. After reading all the arguments for the submission of women in the COC and the arguments about why they don’t use instrumental music (which probably has more to do with saving money than with any Biblical misunderstanding since they do a LOT of things in their church and services that are not found in the New Testament), I figured it was time to provide some background for my beliefs. [...]
April 3rd, 2006 at 7:59 pm
I grew up in the Church of Christ. For the last 20 years I have attended other churches or none at all. I have come to realize that whatever religion a person is, they generally think theirs is right, or they wouldn’t believe it. I have found this to be true of Christians, Jews, Sieks, Muslims, and all of the others. There are good people and bad people in all religions and all societies. I am female and, frankly, never aspired to wanting to lead prayer, preach, lead singing, teach, etc., etc., etc. Nor did I aspire to cooking for the after service luncheons or dinner on the ground, etc., etc. I guess if I had liked to cook, I could have chosen to be a Methodist, since they are known in the south as “chicken eating methodists.” No derision intended, here. I can tell you this, that from my experience, the people who make up the Church of Christ congregations are no different from those who make up the other Christian or what have you groups. Most of the folks I knew were decent, law abiding, moral people. In my family there was no distinction made as to what I could do with my life versus what my brother could do with his. We were given the same educational opportunities, etc., etc., etc. I don’t know what happened in this family. Maybe she was abused or maybe she didn’t like the life of being a minister’s wife and living in a fishbowl, or maybe she had a lover, or maybe he had a lover, or maybe she was just crazy, or maybe he was. He has been described as “charismatic.” Often the more charismatic and popular ministers of any religion have more temptations laid at their feet, as they speak of the “love” of the Lord and seek to “minister” to the people of their congregations. Maybe it was simple unfounded jealousy for whatever reason or maybe it was jealousy with a basis in fact. But, whatever the reason, it is a tragedy for the lives of everyone. I have heard people refer to the Church of Christ as a cult. It isn’t. This is a human tragedy. It isn’t a Church of Christ tragedy. This kind of thing happens in every church, though, thank heaven, in small numbers. Is the Catholic Church a cult? They have their defined roles for women, too. What about the Baptists, the Muslim Sunnis and Shiites, the liberal vs. orthodox Jews, and on and on. The bottom line is how do we treat ourselves and our fellow human beings. I would hope everyone would see this as a human tragedy, because that is what it is and that is all it is.
April 3rd, 2006 at 8:46 pm
Concerning Rhian’s comment:
Evolution cannot explain how these things (even earth and elements themselves) came to be. Would you believe the big bang theory? Then you would have to believe this too: “There was an explosion in the middle east yesturday; no damage occured; however, we now have a new solar system to explore!” - You know that’s not possible! Everywhere you turn in this world; you find evidence of a DESIGNER. You were created by God; in God’s image; and it would be wise of you to remember that!
Most of this site ( http://www.apologeticspress.org ) is proof upon proof after fact after fact that prove the evolutionary theory to be false. The fact is, evolution is based on nothing; cannot account for its beginning; cannot be proven, and has no way to disprove all the evidence that goes against it! Open your eyes! See Design that Demands a Designer! Explosions only destroy; they do not create!
The Bible is faultless and true. How else do you explain its’ being around for thousands of years; failed attempt after failed attempt to destroy it; its’ perfection even though it was written over the course of sever thousand years by over 40 different men, from completely different parts of the known world; in completely different languages?!?
Search the scriptures. Ask; and find answers. There is no other truth!
“In the Beginning, GOD CREATED the Heavens and the Earth.” ~ Genesis 1:1
April 4th, 2006 at 7:53 am
So, let me get this straight, because women can’t song lead or preach sermons during the worship service, that means they’re oppressed? What is your definition of oppression when it comes to coC women?
If anyone thinks he or she is completely right an any religion without any humility to maybe entertain the thought that there is a chance they could be wrong…I have pity on them. They live in their own little world of self interest. You can never approach that person with anything because they’d be too close minded.
April 4th, 2006 at 8:33 am
Mike Donahoo wrote: “So, let me get this straight, because women can’t song lead or preach sermons during the worship service, that means they’re oppressed? What is your definition of oppression when it comes to coC women?”
When any group is not given the opportunity to express their beliefs or share in the ministry of a church, then that group is oppressed. The COC practices a “pick and choose” interpretation of the Bible - ignoring where Jesus himself told women to go and share the gospel. And it is much more than not leading songs or preaching. Well, I’ve already explained how I feel about it. It is just silly, and the COC is the poorer for missing out on the real contributions that women can make in ALL areas of the church.
April 4th, 2006 at 9:43 am
What I find so sad in most of these posts is that you are condeming the church of Christ, which makes it sound like the church committed the murder not Mary Winkler. We all need to be held accountable for our actions. What this blog is doing is blaming the church. I attend a cofc in Nashville I went to a coc University. I do not feel lower then the men. I read my bible and worship as the New Testament Christians did. These people that say we pick and choose should remember we go by the New Testament and the examples. Stop blaming the church start blaming the woman.
April 4th, 2006 at 10:43 am
Once again, people are choosing to say I’m BLAMING the COC. Read the post carefully before making charges like that. I have not blamed anyone.
April 4th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
This is a hard issue, and we always want someone to blame. We are horrified by the idea of someone taking another life and fight for a reason. She has to have been abused. She had a lover or he did. It has to have been the church, yeah, that’s it. Such an oppressive thing it must be for her to have felt that murder is the only way out.
The church is not a cult nor is it oppressive. The fact that some people would try to twist the scriptures to justify their actions doesn’t mean that the scriptures actually condone them. The fact that there are men who want to oppress women in the name of the “church of Christ” doesn’t mean that this is what the church and it’s doctrine (aka - the BIble) condone.
The fact that some men, in the name of “allah” or their muslim faith, decided to fly a plane full of innocent people into a building, doesn’t mean that all muslims are of the same idea. Shall we judge all muslims on a few? Shall we judge the church of Christ from one memeber’s sin?
People make mistakes. People commit heinous crimes. The church