Comments on: Tennessee Church of Christ Minister Murdered by Wife - No wonder? http://themediansib.com/2006/03/24/tennessee-church-of-christ-minister-murdered-by-wife/ Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:18:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Mary Winkler Indicted » Blue Star Chronicles http://themediansib.com/2006/03/24/tennessee-church-of-christ-minister-murdered-by-wife/#comment-135368 Mary Winkler Indicted » Blue Star Chronicles Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:41:03 +0000 http://themediansib.com/?p=432#comment-135368 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] Tennessee Church of Christ Minister Murdered by Wife - No Wonder? [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> Kramer auto Pingback[...] Tennessee Church of Christ Minister Murdered by Wife - No Wonder? [...]

]]> By: Bob http://themediansib.com/2006/03/24/tennessee-church-of-christ-minister-murdered-by-wife/#comment-50959 Bob Thu, 13 Sep 2007 04:25:07 +0000 http://themediansib.com/?p=432#comment-50959 <p>Many times in services with instrumental music I have heard entire songs played with only the instruments and no voices. Often I have seen instrumental music services where the band or organ was so loud you could not hear the voices. In these situations the instrument is replacing the voice. Scripture tells us to teach and exhort one another by singing and no instrument can teach and exhort. If Paul would have been playing the guitar when in jail, he never would have taught salvation to the jailor. But by singing words Paul was able to bring others closer to the Lord. Noah did all the Lord commanded him to do: he built the ark from gopher wood. By God specifying gopher wood He told Noah what He wanted. There was no reason to tell Noah, "don't use oak, don't use pine, don't use maple, don't use ash", etc. If the Lord had to say "do not" to everything man can devise, the Bible would weigh 200 pounds and no one would be able to use it. And how long can you stand to read long lists of "don't's"? He does specify what He does want, and by respecting what He asks for there is no need for Him to say "do not" to everything else. The reason is not only that God did not mention instruments, but what He did mention: singing. We should do our best with things He asked for. God told us to assemble together but He did not mention where. So Christians are free to make decisions about whether to have a building, meet in a house, gather under a tent, etc. But God did say the type of music He wanted. Out of respect for God and what He decided to reveal to us in His word, I will do exactly as He specified. God is the ultimate judge of all, so I will strive to please Him. My efforts are only to plant His seed in others. Matthew 7 tells us of many people who thought they were doing God's will but were refused entry into heavenly fellowship with God. I hope to prevent some souls from being in that line. I pray that you will not be in that line.</p> <strong><em>TMS: I've never seen/heard instruments replacing voices. Instruments are played in the background at times - during the offertory or other quiet times. I find them very helpful in focusing on prayer. During Holy Communion, they especially seem to help me focus on prayer and worship. They are an aid to worship - certainly not a hindrance. Perhaps in some churches the emphasis may be on the instrumental music and not on the worship it's accompanying. Perhaps in some COC churches, the lack of instrumental music magnifies other distractions. That was my experience - at times. God calls us not to judge one another. Our interpretation of scripture varies - not in major ways, but in minor ways. We worship the same Lord - Jesus Christ. God knows our hearts, and I know my heart is sincerely trying to understand and follow His will for me. No one is going to change beliefs as a result of this discussion. You COC folks are doing your best to live the way you believe God instructs you. I'm doing the same. My best wishes to you. As my mother often says, there's enough conflict in the world between Christians and non-Christians. We Christians need to stick together. I have disabled comments to this post - something I should have done a year ago. Folks keep making the same points, and I keep coming back with my same points. I think everything that needs to be said about the topic has been said. My prayers and thoughts are with Mary Winkler. No matter how you view the case, there are no "winners" here. God bless those three little girls whose worlds have been turned upside down.</em></strong> Many times in services with instrumental music I have heard entire songs played with only the instruments and no voices. Often I have seen instrumental music services where the band or organ was so loud you could not hear the voices. In these situations the instrument is replacing the voice. Scripture tells us to teach and exhort one another by singing and no instrument can teach and exhort. If Paul would have been playing the guitar when in jail, he never would have taught salvation to the jailor. But by singing words Paul was able to bring others closer to the Lord. Noah did all the Lord commanded him to do: he built the ark from gopher wood. By God specifying gopher wood He told Noah what He wanted. There was no reason to tell Noah, “don’t use oak, don’t use pine, don’t use maple, don’t use ash”, etc. If the Lord had to say “do not” to everything man can devise, the Bible would weigh 200 pounds and no one would be able to use it. And how long can you stand to read long lists of “don’t’s”? He does specify what He does want, and by respecting what He asks for there is no need for Him to say “do not” to everything else. The reason is not only that God did not mention instruments, but what He did mention: singing. We should do our best with things He asked for. God told us to assemble together but He did not mention where. So Christians are free to make decisions about whether to have a building, meet in a house, gather under a tent, etc. But God did say the type of music He wanted. Out of respect for God and what He decided to reveal to us in His word, I will do exactly as He specified. God is the ultimate judge of all, so I will strive to please Him. My efforts are only to plant His seed in others. Matthew 7 tells us of many people who thought they were doing God’s will but were refused entry into heavenly fellowship with God. I hope to prevent some souls from being in that line. I pray that you will not be in that line.

TMS: I’ve never seen/heard instruments replacing voices. Instruments are played in the background at times - during the offertory or other quiet times. I find them very helpful in focusing on prayer. During Holy Communion, they especially seem to help me focus on prayer and worship. They are an aid to worship - certainly not a hindrance. Perhaps in some churches the emphasis may be on the instrumental music and not on the worship it’s accompanying. Perhaps in some COC churches, the lack of instrumental music magnifies other distractions. That was my experience - at times. God calls us not to judge one another. Our interpretation of scripture varies - not in major ways, but in minor ways. We worship the same Lord - Jesus Christ. God knows our hearts, and I know my heart is sincerely trying to understand and follow His will for me.

No one is going to change beliefs as a result of this discussion. You COC folks are doing your best to live the way you believe God instructs you. I’m doing the same. My best wishes to you. As my mother often says, there’s enough conflict in the world between Christians and non-Christians. We Christians need to stick together.

I have disabled comments to this post - something I should have done a year ago. Folks keep making the same points, and I keep coming back with my same points. I think everything that needs to be said about the topic has been said.

My prayers and thoughts are with Mary Winkler. No matter how you view the case, there are no “winners” here. God bless those three little girls whose worlds have been turned upside down.

]]> By: Bob http://themediansib.com/2006/03/24/tennessee-church-of-christ-minister-murdered-by-wife/#comment-50913 Bob Wed, 12 Sep 2007 04:58:56 +0000 http://themediansib.com/?p=432#comment-50913 <p><p>Where is the verse that says New Testament Christians need an instrument to make a joyful noise? How does the trumpet player follow the command to sing with a trumpet pressed on his lips? A true Christian does not need external stimulus to be joyful. His joy is expressed from his heart. His faith is strong enough he does not need a sideshow to stimilate his spirit. God created us. Man created instruments. How do you know God even likes the sound of an instrument, especially when used to replace or cover up the sound of His creation, His children? Does he like the sound of our Harley Davidson motorcycles as well as some of us in this world do? Instruments were used in pagan worship of their fake gods, but the early Christians did not use them, not because they were not available, but because of the scripture. How does a church justify spending thousands of dollars on organs and instruments instead of using those dollars to save the lost, purchase Bibles, feed the needy? Evidently you have not heard the beautiful singing of many congregations that instruments would only distract from. Besides, this is worship to God, not ourselves. It should be different than a nightclub show. In God's family everyone is a star, not just the solist or the instrumental musician. Worship is directed to God, not ourselves, so we need to minimize worldly distractions and focus on the Lord Almighty. God is to be glorified, not the guitar player. Why don't you try to be a better singer for the Lord? Try to do your best at what God did tell us to do, not on what He didn't tell us to do. Microphones are not used in any congregations here, but even if they were, they only amplify the human voice, they don't replace it or cover it up. From high school you should know there are two different kinds of music: vocal and instrumental. Only one was specified by the Lord. A microphone isn't music. But God did not specify indoor or outdoor water for baptism. Of course water is a liquid, just like singing is music. Using your reasoning, if instruments are acceptable because they are music like singing, then motor oil can be used for baptism because it is a liquid like water. And Krispy Kreme doughnuts and Cherry Coke can be used for bread and fruit of the vine of the communion service. That should help us be more joyful! Using this type of justification for what YOU want to do rather than what God specified has no end. And it pushes God's word out of the picture. Perhaps you need an instrument to be spiritual, but I am so thankful for our Savior Jesus Christ that no human made instrument is capable of increasing my expression of love to God. </p><br /> <p>Go to your library and get a good music history encyclopedia. It will inform you that Christians used vocal music. These books were not written by someone from the church of Christ. It is simply a fact. What was the original meaning of the word "acapella"? It did not mean "vocal music" as we use it today. It originally meant "as done in the chapel." Even the source of the word tells you that vocal music was the music in the church of the Lord.</p><br /> <p>So if you are stranded on a deserted island, are you going to be unable to joyfully praise God because you do not have an instrument? Base your joy on Jesus, not on an instrument. </p><br /> <p>God does not judge a church based on having the best band in town. Change your focus to the Lord.</p></p> <strong><em><p>TMS: You have your justification down pat. Your arguments seem as silly to me as mine apparently seem to you. Jesus didn't forbid instruments, and to not use something because it isn't mentioned in the NT seems ridiculous to me. Instruments don't replace our voices. They simply accompany them. They change our voices no more than a microphone does. However, I grew up with wonderful instrumental music in church. Then I attended a COC for a year and saw the difference. Worship is in the heart of the believer - not in the presence or absence of an instrument. People are behind each instrument - instruments are just an accompaniment to and extension of a person's worship. I love acapella singing, but it isn't the ONLY way to worship God. The difference between us, it seems to me, is that you are eager to judge people who don't believe the same as you believe. And judge quite severely and pompously. I, on the other hand, say it's fine to worship without instrumental music...just don't say it's because Jesus didn't specifically mention them. Jesus didn't specifically mention many things. Using that argument is inconsistent at best. However, Jesus DID command us to worship God - and that is what we're both doing as best we can and in the way we feel God commands us. </p></em></strong> <p>Where is the verse that says New Testament Christians need an instrument to make a joyful noise? How does the trumpet player follow the command to sing with a trumpet pressed on his lips? A true Christian does not need external stimulus to be joyful. His joy is expressed from his heart. His faith is strong enough he does not need a sideshow to stimilate his spirit. God created us. Man created instruments. How do you know God even likes the sound of an instrument, especially when used to replace or cover up the sound of His creation, His children? Does he like the sound of our Harley Davidson motorcycles as well as some of us in this world do? Instruments were used in pagan worship of their fake gods, but the early Christians did not use them, not because they were not available, but because of the scripture. How does a church justify spending thousands of dollars on organs and instruments instead of using those dollars to save the lost, purchase Bibles, feed the needy? Evidently you have not heard the beautiful singing of many congregations that instruments would only distract from. Besides, this is worship to God, not ourselves. It should be different than a nightclub show. In God’s family everyone is a star, not just the solist or the instrumental musician. Worship is directed to God, not ourselves, so we need to minimize worldly distractions and focus on the Lord Almighty. God is to be glorified, not the guitar player. Why don’t you try to be a better singer for the Lord? Try to do your best at what God did tell us to do, not on what He didn’t tell us to do. Microphones are not used in any congregations here, but even if they were, they only amplify the human voice, they don’t replace it or cover it up. From high school you should know there are two different kinds of music: vocal and instrumental. Only one was specified by the Lord. A microphone isn’t music. But God did not specify indoor or outdoor water for baptism. Of course water is a liquid, just like singing is music. Using your reasoning, if instruments are acceptable because they are music like singing, then motor oil can be used for baptism because it is a liquid like water. And Krispy Kreme doughnuts and Cherry Coke can be used for bread and fruit of the vine of the communion service. That should help us be more joyful! Using this type of justification for what YOU want to do rather than what God specified has no end. And it pushes God’s word out of the picture. Perhaps you need an instrument to be spiritual, but I am so thankful for our Savior Jesus Christ that no human made instrument is capable of increasing my expression of love to God. </p>
<p>Go to your library and get a good music history encyclopedia. It will inform you that Christians used vocal music. These books were not written by someone from the church of Christ. It is simply a fact. What was the original meaning of the word “acapella”? It did not mean “vocal music” as we use it today. It originally meant “as done in the chapel.” Even the source of the word tells you that vocal music was the music in the church of the Lord.</p>
<p>So if you are stranded on a deserted island, are you going to be unable to joyfully praise God because you do not have an instrument? Base your joy on Jesus, not on an instrument. </p>
<p>God does not judge a church based on having the best band in town. Change your focus to the Lord.</p>

TMS: You have your justification down pat. Your arguments seem as silly to me as mine apparently seem to you. Jesus didn’t forbid instruments, and to not use something because it isn’t mentioned in the NT seems ridiculous to me. Instruments don’t replace our voices. They simply accompany them. They change our voices no more than a microphone does. However, I grew up with wonderful instrumental music in church. Then I attended a COC for a year and saw the difference. Worship is in the heart of the believer - not in the presence or absence of an instrument. People are behind each instrument - instruments are just an accompaniment to and extension of a person’s worship. I love acapella singing, but it isn’t the ONLY way to worship God.

The difference between us, it seems to me, is that you are eager to judge people who don’t believe the same as you believe. And judge quite severely and pompously. I, on the other hand, say it’s fine to worship without instrumental music…just don’t say it’s because Jesus didn’t specifically mention them. Jesus didn’t specifically mention many things. Using that argument is inconsistent at best. However, Jesus DID command us to worship God - and that is what we’re both doing as best we can and in the way we feel God commands us.

]]> By: Bob http://themediansib.com/2006/03/24/tennessee-church-of-christ-minister-murdered-by-wife/#comment-50839 Bob Sun, 09 Sep 2007 00:10:01 +0000 http://themediansib.com/?p=432#comment-50839 <p>It's your turn: tell us why you do use instruments in worship.</p> TMS: because they help us make a joyful noise unto the Lord. They help us express our love and worship of Christ. It’s your turn: tell us why you do use instruments in worship.

TMS: because they help us make a joyful noise unto the Lord. They help us express our love and worship of Christ.

]]> By: Bob http://themediansib.com/2006/03/24/tennessee-church-of-christ-minister-murdered-by-wife/#comment-50818 Bob Sat, 08 Sep 2007 06:05:34 +0000 http://themediansib.com/?p=432#comment-50818 <p>It was not until 200 years ago that instruments of music became popular in the worship service. For centuries after the church started in Acts 2, Christians understood instruments were not approved by the Lord, it is God who has the right to say, because He is the one being worshipped. Why does the Vatican not use instruments? Why do millions of Greek Orthodox members not use instruments? Even a few Baptist churches do not use instruments. The churches of Christ are not the only ones to sing acapella. Proof of vocal only singing in worship is easily found even outside of the Bible. A quick study of music history reveals church music was vocal. Recognized church reformers stood against instrumental music in church such as Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley, yet their "followers" today utilize it. Please fully study subjects before drawing a conclusion.</p> TMS: You've got it worked out in your mind' Enjoy. Oh, the Lord didn't mention the use of microphones or of indoor baptismal fonts - so obviously you wouldn't use those either. It was not until 200 years ago that instruments of music became popular in the worship service. For centuries after the church started in Acts 2, Christians understood instruments were not approved by the Lord, it is God who has the right to say, because He is the one being worshipped. Why does the Vatican not use instruments? Why do millions of Greek Orthodox members not use instruments? Even a few Baptist churches do not use instruments. The churches of Christ are not the only ones to sing acapella. Proof of vocal only singing in worship is easily found even outside of the Bible. A quick study of music history reveals church music was vocal. Recognized church reformers stood against instrumental music in church such as Martin Luther, John Calvin and John Wesley, yet their “followers” today utilize it. Please fully study subjects before drawing a conclusion.

TMS: You’ve got it worked out in your mind’ Enjoy. Oh, the Lord didn’t mention the use of microphones or of indoor baptismal fonts - so obviously you wouldn’t use those either.

]]> By: Wendy W.L. http://themediansib.com/2006/03/24/tennessee-church-of-christ-minister-murdered-by-wife/#comment-50621 Wendy W.L. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:10:33 +0000 http://themediansib.com/?p=432#comment-50621 <p><p>The C of Christ believes in the role of women as the Bible dictates it to us. Husbands love their wives as Christ loved the Church. We are commanded to stay silent in churches but that doesn't mean we have no voice--there is just a different way going about being heard. Any woman in the C of Christ more than a couple of years can clearly understand this. We do not use instruments in services because there is no mention of it in the New Testament. The Old Testament law was wiped clean with the New Testament. As a woman, I have never felt, "less" than any man standing on the pulpit leading song or prayer. Each gender have their role and we would all be better off if we quit trying to redesign what God has already set in place. Our job is not to question. We will understand when the time comes.</p></p> <p><strong><em>TMS: Glad you've got it figured out, Wendy. It's your choice to follow what Paul wrote to one specific church about one specific situation rather than what Jesus himself said. And the fact that instruments aren't mentioned in the New Testament is the lamest thing I've ever heard - especially considering all the things that COC folks use in their services that aren't mentioned in the NT. Only someone who is so thoroughly doctrinated as to write "Our job is not to question" wouldn't see the silliness of such a practice. It's fine to not use instruments in worship - just don't say it's based on the Bible/NT. God gave us minds so we could use them. He WANTS us to question. That's the only way our faith will be authentic.</em></strong></p> <p>The C of Christ believes in the role of women as the Bible dictates it to us. Husbands love their wives as Christ loved the Church. We are commanded to stay silent in churches but that doesn’t mean we have no voice–there is just a different way going about being heard. Any woman in the C of Christ more than a couple of years can clearly understand this. We do not use instruments in services because there is no mention of it in the New Testament. The Old Testament law was wiped clean with the New Testament. As a woman, I have never felt, “less” than any man standing on the pulpit leading song or prayer. Each gender have their role and we would all be better off if we quit trying to redesign what God has already set in place. Our job is not to question. We will understand when the time comes.</p>

<strong><em>TMS: Glad you’ve got it figured out, Wendy. It’s your choice to follow what Paul wrote to one specific church about one specific situation rather than what Jesus himself said. And the fact that instruments aren’t mentioned in the New Testament is the lamest thing I’ve ever heard - especially considering all the things that COC folks use in their services that aren’t mentioned in the NT. Only someone who is so thoroughly doctrinated as to write “Our job is not to question” wouldn’t see the silliness of such a practice. It’s fine to not use instruments in worship - just don’t say it’s based on the Bible/NT. God gave us minds so we could use them. He WANTS us to question. That’s the only way our faith will be authentic.</em></strong>

]]> By: Lance http://themediansib.com/2006/03/24/tennessee-church-of-christ-minister-murdered-by-wife/#comment-50201 Lance Thu, 23 Aug 2007 04:36:54 +0000 http://themediansib.com/?p=432#comment-50201 My initial reaction in reading your post and the subsequent responses was one of total embarrasment. I feel so terrible that your experiences with the Churches Of Christ have driven you to the point where "You don't intend to ever visit another Church of Christ". I am so sorry that you have had this type of experience. Even if it has absolutely no impact on your feelings, I would like to explain, as best I can, my beliefs on some of the issues that have caused you to feel this way. Let me preface by saying that my father has been a Church of Christ minister for over 40 years. He is a very loving husband and father who cherishes his wife and children and has impacted many lives for good in his years of service to the Lord. But, I have never relied on him to tell me what I should believe. "Belief" should always be established by the individual's study of the Word and search for the wisdom that God wants to give them. The teachings of other people should be the beginning of our search for the truth, not the end. Concerning instrumental music: I love instruments and play the guitar at home alomst every day (gospel and other genres). However, I believe that acapela music is the best way to praise God in a worship assembly. I do not believe that the Bible teaches that it is wrong to worship God with instruments and I don't have a problem with anyone who disagrees with me on this point because it certainly is not an issue central to salvaltion. However, I do feel that having instrumental accompaniment in the worship assembly can change the focus of the service from worship to entertainment. My belief is that acapela is the form of praise in song that is the most likely to involve everyone in attendance in the song service and keep everyone focused on God rather than the music. I agree that the use of instruments for praise is prominent in the Old Testament, but the church did not exist yet in the Old Testament, so these passages deal with settings other than the assembly of the church that was established by Christ. Concerning the wife's submission to the husband: The problem with this issue in the Church is that many men overlook the "as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" part of the passage in Ephesians 5. How could a woman have any response other than submission to a man who places her needs so far above his own that he would willingly suffer a humiliating and excrutiating death in order to save her? If a woman feels confident that every decision her husband makes is based on his consideration of her needs before his own, submission is the natural response. This passage is as much an instruction to husbands as it is to wives, if not more. I agree with you that some men in some Churches of Christ don't see it that way. But I want to assure you that many men in the Church of Christ, including this one, do see it that way. Concerning women's role in the church: Women are a vital part of a heathly church family in many ways that don't involve children or food. The scriptures do clearly teach that men are to fill the roles of elders and deacons (1 Timothy and Titus)and there is no mention of women having a role the worship service that I know of. But that does not mean that women's only involvement in the church is in children's classrooms or the kitchen. Almost every ministry that exists at the church I attend involves women and many of them are lead by women. The church is a body made up of many parts and each part does its work to build up the body and glorify God. I don't know if anything I have said will cause you to reconsider any of your feelings toward the Church of Christ, but I do ask that you remember that the "Church" is the members, not the sign out front. In any church affilation you will find members (and entire congregations) that get off track in their thinking and practices. Many of us that are members of the Church of Christ will love you and treat you in a manner that reflects Christ. God Bless You. My initial reaction in reading your post and the subsequent responses was one of total embarrasment. I feel so terrible that your experiences with the Churches Of Christ have driven you to the point where “You don’t intend to ever visit another Church of Christ”. I am so sorry that you have had this type of experience.

Even if it has absolutely no impact on your feelings, I would like to explain, as best I can, my beliefs on some of the issues that have caused you to feel this way.

Let me preface by saying that my father has been a Church of Christ minister for over 40 years. He is a very loving husband and father who cherishes his wife and children and has impacted many lives for good in his years of service to the Lord. But, I have never relied on him to tell me what I should believe. “Belief” should always be established by the individual’s study of the Word and search for the wisdom that God wants to give them. The teachings of other people should be the beginning of our search for the truth, not the end.

Concerning instrumental music: I love instruments and play the guitar at home alomst every day (gospel and other genres). However, I believe that acapela music is the best way to praise God in a worship assembly. I do not believe that the Bible teaches that it is wrong to worship God with instruments and I don’t have a problem with anyone who disagrees with me on this point because it certainly is not an issue central to salvaltion. However, I do feel that having instrumental accompaniment in the worship assembly can change the focus of the service from worship to entertainment. My belief is that acapela is the form of praise in song that is the most likely to involve everyone in attendance in the song service and keep everyone focused on God rather than the music. I agree that the use of instruments for praise is prominent in the Old Testament, but the church did not exist yet in the Old Testament, so these passages deal with settings other than the assembly of the church that was established by Christ.

Concerning the wife’s submission to the husband: The problem with this issue in the Church is that many men overlook the “as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her” part of the passage in Ephesians 5. How could a woman have any response other than submission to a man who places her needs so far above his own that he would willingly suffer a humiliating and excrutiating death in order to save her? If a woman feels confident that every decision her husband makes is based on his consideration of her needs before his own, submission is the natural response. This passage is as much an instruction to husbands as it is to wives, if not more. I agree with you that some men in some Churches of Christ don’t see it that way. But I want to assure you that many men in the Church of Christ, including this one, do see it that way.

Concerning women’s role in the church: Women are a vital part of a heathly church family in many ways that don’t involve children or food. The scriptures do clearly teach that men are to fill the roles of elders and deacons (1 Timothy and Titus)and there is no mention of women having a role the worship service that I know of. But that does not mean that women’s only involvement in the church is in children’s classrooms or the kitchen. Almost every ministry that exists at the church I attend involves women and many of them are lead by women. The church is a body made up of many parts and each part does its work to build up the body and glorify God.

I don’t know if anything I have said will cause you to reconsider any of your feelings toward the Church of Christ, but I do ask that you remember that the “Church” is the members, not the sign out front. In any church affilation you will find members (and entire congregations) that get off track in their thinking and practices. Many of us that are members of the Church of Christ will love you and treat you in a manner that reflects Christ.

God Bless You.

]]> By: Robin http://themediansib.com/2006/03/24/tennessee-church-of-christ-minister-murdered-by-wife/#comment-49648 Robin Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:09:23 +0000 http://themediansib.com/?p=432#comment-49648 <p>Just found this post on google. I won't say much because I don't think it will matter.<br /> The church of Christ does its best to follow the example of the new testement church. There is no mention of instruments, so they are not used. I understand that there is no mention of "projectors or screens or even songbooks" in the bible, yet they use them. Some of them are hard-nosed conservative people. But let's face it, they know their bible. Sometimes, many times, they do put so much focus on doing things the way the new testement depicts that they forget about the people. But, as has been mentioned, this is not everyone.<br /> You don't like the fact that women are not given leadership roles, then you talk that over with God. Elders, deacons were to have one wife...Had to be male!<br /> There is no authoritative motives.<br /> That being said, it doesn't matter that this man was a church of Christ minister. It doesn't matter that she was a wife of one. SHE MADE THE CHOICE TO KILL HIM!! Judas was a member of Jesus' 12, yet he made the choice to betray Jesus. Should we look at Christ and think, "Well, he was just so dog-gone rebellious, I see why Judas betrayed him." NO, of course not. Judas made that choice.<br /> The church of Christ is no more responsible for this death than I was for Abraham Lincoln's. She made the choice. And did she grow up in the cofC? Probably so...so I don't think that had anything to do with it. Her husband was obviously an abusive man. That doesn't mean every church of Christ minister is abusive. Let's not pass judgement on the whole litter because of the one runt.<br /> To the person who judges a people who follow God to the best of their ability I say this: Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand for the Lord is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4</p> <strong><em><font color="blue">TMS: Ah, I just love people who comment and don't bother to read all I've written on the topic. Just get off your high horse. I never blamed the COC for Matthew Winkler's murder. I gave my opinion as to the POSSIBLE ill effects of such a narrow-minded and legalistic interpretation of the New Testament. Of course Mary Winkler made the choice to murder her husband. Next time take the time to really read what I write instead of going off on illogical tangents. I do disagree with your statement that COC folks know their Bible. They know a legalistic interpretation of it - but without consideration for context and intent. Anybody can memorize and parrot something they've been indoctrinated with. Jesus came to do away with the old "Law" and he himself made no distinction between men and women in their service to God. It was Paul - writing about a specific situation that did that. I'll take Jesus' words of inclusion and love anyday over Paul's of exclusion.</font></em></strong> Just found this post on google. I won’t say much because I don’t think it will matter.
The church of Christ does its best to follow the example of the new testement church. There is no mention of instruments, so they are not used. I understand that there is no mention of “projectors or screens or even songbooks” in the bible, yet they use them. Some of them are hard-nosed conservative people. But let’s face it, they know their bible. Sometimes, many times, they do put so much focus on doing things the way the new testement depicts that they forget about the people. But, as has been mentioned, this is not everyone.
You don’t like the fact that women are not given leadership roles, then you talk that over with God. Elders, deacons were to have one wife…Had to be male!
There is no authoritative motives.
That being said, it doesn’t matter that this man was a church of Christ minister. It doesn’t matter that she was a wife of one. SHE MADE THE CHOICE TO KILL HIM!! Judas was a member of Jesus’ 12, yet he made the choice to betray Jesus. Should we look at Christ and think, “Well, he was just so dog-gone rebellious, I see why Judas betrayed him.” NO, of course not. Judas made that choice.
The church of Christ is no more responsible for this death than I was for Abraham Lincoln’s. She made the choice. And did she grow up in the cofC? Probably so…so I don’t think that had anything to do with it. Her husband was obviously an abusive man. That doesn’t mean every church of Christ minister is abusive. Let’s not pass judgement on the whole litter because of the one runt.
To the person who judges a people who follow God to the best of their ability I say this: Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand for the Lord is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4

TMS: Ah, I just love people who comment and don’t bother to read all I’ve written on the topic. Just get off your high horse. I never blamed the COC for Matthew Winkler’s murder. I gave my opinion as to the POSSIBLE ill effects of such a narrow-minded and legalistic interpretation of the New Testament. Of course Mary Winkler made the choice to murder her husband. Next time take the time to really read what I write instead of going off on illogical tangents. I do disagree with your statement that COC folks know their Bible. They know a legalistic interpretation of it - but without consideration for context and intent. Anybody can memorize and parrot something they’ve been indoctrinated with. Jesus came to do away with the old “Law” and he himself made no distinction between men and women in their service to God. It was Paul - writing about a specific situation that did that. I’ll take Jesus’ words of inclusion and love anyday over Paul’s of exclusion.

]]> By: chris http://themediansib.com/2006/03/24/tennessee-church-of-christ-minister-murdered-by-wife/#comment-49506 chris Wed, 08 Aug 2007 18:10:33 +0000 http://themediansib.com/?p=432#comment-49506 <p>I apologize that you have had a bad experience with the coc. However, you have to realize no matter where you go satan will be there. I for one love the singing with no music, one song leader not many. My wife obeys God and submits herself to God and myself as I submit myself to God and her, read eph 5 slowly. If the husband is obedient and loves the lord, he will treat his wife as a treasure and not a slave, the emphasis is placed on the husband loving his wife, therefore the wife will willingly follow his lead, because he listens, is tender anc caring. I know the old testament talked of harps but it also talked about sacrifices, and hebrews 9 and 10 talks about Christ being the better sacrifice doing away with the old, but leaving it there to be an example and a historical text. The only real disagreement i have, is the women being silent, that text definition deals more with a leadership role, an order set by God, it goes God then Christ then man then woman. God is specific, ask moses, he couldn't go to the promised land because he hit the rock when God said speak to it. That's not what I want to happen to me or any other person. Hopefully you will visit more churches of christ, but may God continue to bless you.</p> agape<p> chris</p> <p></p> <font color="blue"><strong><em>TMS: Chris, you have the COC teachings down pat. I don't intend to ever visit another Church of Christ. Their beliefs go against what Jesus himself taught. I belong to a small, Bible-based congregation where ALL believers are welcomed and treated equally - as God intended. The music is rich with meaning and enthusiasm and has instrumental accompaniment. May God bless you, too.</em></strong></font> I apologize that you have had a bad experience with the coc. However, you have to realize no matter where you go satan will be there. I for one love the singing with no music, one song leader not many. My wife obeys God and submits herself to God and myself as I submit myself to God and her, read eph 5 slowly. If the husband is obedient and loves the lord, he will treat his wife as a treasure and not a slave, the emphasis is placed on the husband loving his wife, therefore the wife will willingly follow his lead, because he listens, is tender anc caring. I know the old testament talked of harps but it also talked about sacrifices, and hebrews 9 and 10 talks about Christ being the better sacrifice doing away with the old, but leaving it there to be an example and a historical text. The only real disagreement i have, is the women being silent, that text definition deals more with a leadership role, an order set by God, it goes God then Christ then man then woman. God is specific, ask moses, he couldn’t go to the promised land because he hit the rock when God said speak to it. That’s not what I want to happen to me or any other person. Hopefully you will visit more churches of christ, but may God continue to bless you.

agape

chris

TMS: Chris, you have the COC teachings down pat. I don’t intend to ever visit another Church of Christ. Their beliefs go against what Jesus himself taught. I belong to a small, Bible-based congregation where ALL believers are welcomed and treated equally - as God intended. The music is rich with meaning and enthusiasm and has instrumental accompaniment. May God bless you, too.

]]> By: jan a. http://themediansib.com/2006/03/24/tennessee-church-of-christ-minister-murdered-by-wife/#comment-48303 jan a. Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:31:08 +0000 http://themediansib.com/?p=432#comment-48303 <p>Has anyone considered that religion could be totally left out of this? Many people of all religions and no religions murder their husbands. I am a member of the Church of Christ, and as a woman am not beaten down or abused in any way. We let the men lead the service and wait on or serve at the communion tables. There is scriptural basis for that. I don't think the church of christ is a cult. They do vary in their beliefs. Saying all the churches of christs are a cult is like saying the Catholic church is a cult. Thousands of priests have been abusers, have molested so many. Why single out the church of Christ? I would like to know what evidence was presented in the trial that showed that Mary was abused? Maybe she was, but didn't hear anything about it? People are speculating all kinds of things, but none of us know what really happened. What facts have come out. If she did spend a lot of their money on a Nigerian money laundering or cheating scheme, I'm sure he was angry. Maybe she is bi-polar or borderline personality....obviously something was wrong, but just because they were church leaders, don't blame it on the church.</p> <font color="blue">TMS: In the trials, very convincing evidence and testimony was given that Matthew Winkler abused both his wife and his daughters. He'd put his hands over the baby's mouth and pinch her nose to keep her from crying. He both physically and sexually abused Mary. I personally don't understand how anyone can, in good conscience, be a member of the Church of Christ. I realize others think differently. It's a repressive, divisive and limiting interpretation of scripture.</font> Has anyone considered that religion could be totally left out of this? Many people of all religions and no religions murder their husbands. I am a member of the Church of Christ, and as a woman am not beaten down or abused in any way. We let the men lead the service and wait on or serve at the communion tables. There is scriptural basis for that. I don’t think the church of christ is a cult. They do vary in their beliefs. Saying all the churches of christs are a cult is like saying the Catholic church is a cult. Thousands of priests have been abusers, have molested so many. Why single out the church of Christ? I would like to know what evidence was presented in the trial that showed that Mary was abused? Maybe she was, but didn’t hear anything about it? People are speculating all kinds of things, but none of us know what really happened. What facts have come out. If she did spend a lot of their money on a Nigerian money laundering or cheating scheme, I’m sure he was angry. Maybe she is bi-polar or borderline personality….obviously something was wrong, but just because they were church leaders, don’t blame it on the church.

TMS: In the trials, very convincing evidence and testimony was given that Matthew Winkler abused both his wife and his daughters. He’d put his hands over the baby’s mouth and pinch her nose to keep her from crying. He both physically and sexually abused Mary.

I personally don’t understand how anyone can, in good conscience, be a member of the Church of Christ. I realize others think differently. It’s a repressive, divisive and limiting interpretation of scripture.

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