(Update, 6/12/06 - for new information on this case, click here)Â
Last week I wrote about my speculations concerning the murder of Matthew Winkler. In that post, I mentioned that Mary Winkler might possibly have been dealing with some issues stemming from the Church of Christ’s oppression of women - that maybe the COC’s demeaning (my opinion) policies towards women had something to do with her resorting to something so extreme and out of character.
The post generated lots of comments, and today I received the following email from someone named Brett.
“I am sure that you meant no harm in speculating over the motive of the wife who murdered her church of Christ minister husband. However, your comments came across as cruel and callous. I am sure this is not the image you want people to have of you. It is truely tragic when we feel the need to kick those who are already down. Have you know sympathy for the family who lost their son? Have you not thought that people of varying religious backgrounds murder their family members because they are simply disturbed? How many of those professing to be practicing Catholics or Baptists etc have been guilty of murder? By the way, have you considered the fact that Psalm 33:1-3 is part of the Old Testament? Are we bound by commands and allowances of the Old Testament? I am sure that you no longer offer animal sacrifices or refrain from eating pork and other unclean meats. Why quote commands and allowances given under the Old Law? I hope in the future you refrain from mean spirited comments that only inflame and injure the families who have experienced a loss.”
It has been enlightening to me to read all the comments on my initial post. Cruel, callous and mean-spirited? Aw, come on! Is there anyone who reads this blog even occasionally who thinks that? I was relating a personal experience and opinion, and I prefaced it with how badly I felt about the whole situation - and even later (days before this email) I wrote another post about how the focus should be on the three girls and the heartbreak they are experiencing as a result of what their mother did to their father.Â
And should we just throw out the Old Testament? Is there no value or guidance for us there? Is that a COC belief, too - that the Old Testament has no merit? Curious perspective.
So this cruel, callous and mean-spirited blogger who has no sympathy for people who’ve experienced a loss and who just wants to inflame and injure people who are already hurting will now close this post.
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April 2nd, 2006 at 6:44 pm
I read both of your posts and I can see that you were not mean spirited, but were speculating about the possible causes of this tragedy. It appears to me that the COC is rather like the denomination that I used to belong as well, which teaches the headship of the man over the woman and the proper role for women in the church. Whether there wre oppression within such communities I do not really know, but I think I can understand what you are talking about. Unfortunately in many Christian communities, legalism can lead to authoritarianism and can also lead to a sense of guilt and shame when it comes to private sins. Sometimes such private tensions can boil over within the family and can cause much pain. It is really heartbreaking and underscores how much each of us need the grace and mercy of God.
April 2nd, 2006 at 7:15 pm
This is such a sad situation and until all is known, there will continue to be much speculation and debate from many points of view.
Carol, you were not mean spirited, you merely offered your thoughts and included some info from your own experiences in a public forum.
You know what was on your heart and how you felt when you were writing. You know that it was not your intent to come across to anyone — not even one person — as cruel, callous or mean spirited. Unfortunately, “Brett” interpreted your meaning differently.
Maybe you can use your blog once more to show Brett that you truly care about the plight of the Winkler family. That is, if his mind is open to it. If he has a closed mind, however, then anything that anyone writes — good or bad and about any subject at all — could come across to him as cruel, callous and mean spirited. It’s one of those darned if you do, darned if you don’t situations.
April 2nd, 2006 at 7:35 pm
Mary Winkler, the Preacher’s Wife…
I haven’t written any posts on this murder mystery, but there has certainly been a lot of interest and speculation about it pretty much everywhere.
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One of the best discussions I’ve seen is at The Median Sib.
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Check out the links below …
April 2nd, 2006 at 8:51 pm
[...] (Note added: For other posts I’ve written on this topic, please check this post and this post). [...]
April 2nd, 2006 at 11:34 pm
Hi,
I don’t think you come across mean spirited for wondering about abuse in the Church of Christ. The media is making it out to be an ordinary church, but I looked into it a year ago after hearing of a man that burst into a Church of Christ Church and starting shooting. It turns out he was a member…
April 3rd, 2006 at 12:46 pm
April 3rd, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Carol,
The fellow “Brett” who wrote you that email has some sort of COC axe to grind, and he intended to invalidate your viewpoint by twisting your words and making it seem as though you were saying something you hadn’t intended, and in fact never said. That’s exactly what an emotional abuser does. In my opinion, “Brett” is nothing more than a COC running dog trying to press people’s buttons and subvert reality.
“I hope in the future you refrain from mean spirited comments.” — He intended to shut you up and keep you from expressing your views.
“I am sure this is not the image you want people to have of you.” — He is a Manipulator.
This is an example of how the COC tries to control the thoughts and behaviors of others. Members of my own family grew up in the COC, and even after they became adults and escaped its weekly indoctrinations, they continued to suffer the long-lasting deleterious effects it had on their lives and the lives of their children.
April 4th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
[...] People continue to read and debate the post I wrote over a week ago about Mary Winkler’s killing of her husband, a Church of Christ minister. If you want to read that post or others, go here, here, and here. In the comments section, people have argued about what the Church of Christ believes or doesn’t believe and what it practices or doesn’t practice. There are strong and passionate feelings both pro and con. For the most part it has been a civilized discussion. I’ve only had to edit one comment that crossed the line. After reading all the arguments for the submission of women in the COC and the arguments about why they don’t use instrumental music (which probably has more to do with saving money than with any Biblical misunderstanding since they do a LOT of things in their church and services that are not found in the New Testament), I figured it was time to provide some background for my beliefs. [...]
April 6th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
Rhian,
I agree with everyone else about Carol’s posts, except you. I do not choose to judge you or guess what has happened in your life with or without the church of Christ, but have you ever really read the things that you post. IF there is anyone that has a mean spirit or is cruel or callous, I would venture to say sir, that it is you.
Carol,
I think your posts are open and fair. The only thing I would want to say, being a member of a wonderful church of Christ, is that not everything is as it may appear to one person. Thank you for the opportunity to share my opinion.
April 21st, 2006 at 2:30 pm
I am a woman and a member of the Church of Christ. You must remember that there are various versions of the COC just as there are of baptists, methodists etc. I chose to be a member of this Church, when I was a teenager and not at my parents urging. It is true that some people in the very far past, have made it seem like all members of the COC believe we are the only one’s going to Heaven. I am leaving that up to God. “Judge not that you be not judged.” I do believe that believing in Christ as your Savior is an essential part of being saved and that baptism by immersion is also needed.
It is true that at the COC that I am a member of, women are not allowed to be preachers or lead singing etc. in the Church service. However, there are many opportunities that I have to serve the members of our Church and those in our community including leading a variety of community service projects including giving gifts and food to needy families in our community during the holidays; helping stock our food pantry which is open to all in need; leading Bible School classes for a variety of ages; visiting the sick; preparing food for the sick; visiting hospital and home shut-ins etc. I also focus on raising my beautiful 9-year-old son who was recently baptized because I have shown him in my life what God can do for you. Let me say that part was not easy like you may think because at the age of 38 I was diagnosed with a very bad form of Breast Cancer. I give God, Jesus and the many angels at the Church and those I met in the crowds for saving my life, along with my wonderful doctors. This experience has helped me become more ‘open’ to God and Jesus being all around me and the many wonders and miracles I see each day.
Before I was laid off in December of last year I also worked full-time, so I am not a Christian who believes that women must stay at home and be bearfoot and pregnant. I used my time at work to help reach others. Just because I choose not to worship with a woman preacher or be lead in song by other women doesn’t make me backwards or old fashioned. I am a strong-willed woman who has led many projects in civic organizations and where I work. I chose to follow what I read in the New Testament (and yes, we do study the Old Testament - very much in fact) as my guide to worshipping God. While I was dating (many years ago) I wanted to marry a preacher and help spread the word that I so strongly believe in. I didn’t see it as a punishment.
It might interest you to know that many COC have Women’s Bible Study Classes led by woman, some where they even lead singing. This is not done as part of the actual Church service but before in Bible class time. I also led singing and devotionals when I was at the Christian College (Freed-Hardeman) in my all-female dorm.
Thank you for letting me share my thoughts.
Joy
April 21st, 2006 at 11:07 pm
[...] in the Church - Is the Church of Christ right? (Winkler post follow-up), Trackback Permalink Filed under: This ‘n That Leave aComment [...]
May 6th, 2006 at 7:05 pm
Christianity…
The Christianity we know today is an arbitrarily defined one based on a Even after the initial formalization of Ch……
October 8th, 2006 at 10:31 pm
April 18th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
Regardless of Mary Winkler’s motive and the fact that it was her husband, she still shot someone. She still deserves to go to jail for an amount of time. I seem to recall that murder is against the law, and one of the 10 commandments. This Brett person that emailed you, and started his rant about the old testament, needs to realize that many people do still follow (very closely) the old testament - those of the Jewish faith! The old testament, by the way, is where the ten commandments are, Brett.
TMS: The fact is, though, that many people who commit murder never go to jail. It all depends on the circumstances and why the murder was committed. However, the fact that she shot him while he was sleeping is definitely something that won’t work in her favor.
May 1st, 2007 at 5:56 pm
I don’t know if Joy is still checking this blog but her expose on her involvement with the coc is very indicative of one who is saved by Jesus Christ and not by any church. Her words ring so true and clear. I am glad she is spending her time teaching others, especially her son, about the importance of relationship and not church affiliation. I was a minister in the coc for many years and have left that denomination (yes, it is a denomination)and enjoy true freedom in Christ.
Joy - may God bless you as you serve others. The very thing that Jesus came to do - to serve others.
August 20th, 2007 at 7:32 am
I think all of you are insane. The complete inabiliy to witness an unjustied, horric murder of the first degree (which is what Mary Winkler should have been charged with) when looking at this situation only shows the depth to which this new way of thinking (i.e., women’s liberation, feminism) has taken the minds of American women. Any ideology that misconstrues a premeditative murderer into a helpless victim is itself the problem. Along with Mary Winkler, the entire ideology and movement that brought such morally depraved thinking onto this planet should be on trial. And as far as these issues of control, abuse, and oppression are concerned, these are just the “buzz words” for the rejection of authority, the rejection of personal resposibility and accountability, and a license to engage in any amoral and socially destructive behavoir that appeals to the whims of liberated minds! There, I’ve said it–what other men should be saying if the weren’t too whipped to say it.
And while we are on the subject, the need for male control is nothing so horrible as you liberationists make it out to be. Leadership is one of the most honorable and morally sublime characteristics of human relationships. For men to be leaders of women and children should be something for women to be proud of, if men are the good leaders they can be and have been throughout human history. Yes, history books are rift with accounts of the failures of men to provide good leadership. So, if a woman, or a church, or a country can find good leadership from a man (and there is no reason to believe that Mr. Winkler provided anything significantly less than good leadership as pastor and husband) then let the world celebrate his achievements, mourn his death, and despise the deviant criminals (both the one who pulled the trigger and the ones who provided the ideological gun) who took him from his parents, his daughters, and his parishioners.
TMS: Wow, the court records give a LOT of evidence that Mr. Winkler provided a great deal of less than good leadership as a husband, father - and thus as a minister. He didn’t deserve to die. Mary Winkler shouldn’t get off so easily either. Mr. Winkler was not taking ownership of his bad behavior. He was hiding it behind his “authority” as a husband and minister. Your comment is indicative of someone with a lot of anger issues.
September 22nd, 2008 at 2:30 am