Comments on: Mary Winkler Goes To Trial http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/ Sat, 22 Nov 2008 00:57:17 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: jm http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-65870 jm Tue, 18 Mar 2008 03:24:13 +0000 http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-65870 Please tell me what you think I am misunderstanding - I showed you what the Bible says; that's not my opinion; that's God's design. <strong><em><p>TMS: jm, I mean no disrespect. I have been having these "conversations" on this blog with COC folks for two years now. You are firm in your beliefs - and what I write won't change your mind. I'm not quite sure why I keep bothering to reply to people. I need to end comments on all my Mary Winkler/COC posts. I've studied the Bible my entire life. My father was a minister, my mother is a minister, and I was brought up on the Bible. I attend church services every Sunday - and a Bible study every Wednesday evening. I also attend a Sunday morning Bible study (Sunday school class) each week that is led by a woman (with men in the class - including my husband). I myself have taught adult Sunday school classes in the past which included both men and women. I've seen firsthand through knowing women pastors and women Bible teachers over the years that they are just as called by God as men pastors. None of the women pastors I've known are arrogant or seeking to be an "authority." They are simply answering an undeniable call of God in their lives. I have personally seen God work wonderful ministries through some of them. When I attended a COC for the first time a few years ago, I was shocked because I didn't realize that there were still large groups of people out there who believe as you do. I had no problem with the "no musical instruments" thing because I just figured that was a preference. When I learned that there are no musical instruments in COC worship services because of their interpretation of the Bible, I was appalled. ReallY? How on earth could the Bible be interpreted that way - especially considering all the other "non-Biblical" things that go on in COC churches? In my view, the COC has taken the Scripture out of context and turned it around to fit their own beliefs - whether it's about only men leading worship to having only a capella music - and then they've added the line about women being "honored" to make it palatable to the women in your churches. Some things are done because they either are or aren't in the New Testament. Other things aren't. It makes no sense to me - or to anyone else I've talked to who wasn't raised in a COC church. You can talk about women being in a place of honor all you like. But actions are what's important - and the actions of the COC show that women are devalued. I firmly believe that when judgment time comes you will have to answer to God for willfully limiting how God can work through half the church members. And even writing this, I feel almost guilty because although I'm expressing my belief, I don't want you to feel I'm being judgmental. Although I can understand how you could get to your beliefs via the Bible, I don't understand how you can get to your beliefs if you take the Bible and especially the New Testament as a whole. It goes against what's emphasized over and over again in the New Testament - that in God's eyes there is no male or female, etc. However, if that's how you choose to interpret God's Word, if you want to call your interpretation "God's design" and if that's how you want to worship, then that's your right. Freedom of worship is a cornerstone of our nation. </p></em></strong> Please tell me what you think I am misunderstanding - I showed you what the Bible says; that’s not my opinion; that’s God’s design.

TMS: jm, I mean no disrespect. I have been having these “conversations” on this blog with COC folks for two years now. You are firm in your beliefs - and what I write won’t change your mind. I’m not quite sure why I keep bothering to reply to people. I need to end comments on all my Mary Winkler/COC posts.

I’ve studied the Bible my entire life. My father was a minister, my mother is a minister, and I was brought up on the Bible. I attend church services every Sunday - and a Bible study every Wednesday evening. I also attend a Sunday morning Bible study (Sunday school class) each week that is led by a woman (with men in the class - including my husband). I myself have taught adult Sunday school classes in the past which included both men and women. I’ve seen firsthand through knowing women pastors and women Bible teachers over the years that they are just as called by God as men pastors. None of the women pastors I’ve known are arrogant or seeking to be an “authority.” They are simply answering an undeniable call of God in their lives. I have personally seen God work wonderful ministries through some of them.

When I attended a COC for the first time a few years ago, I was shocked because I didn’t realize that there were still large groups of people out there who believe as you do. I had no problem with the “no musical instruments” thing because I just figured that was a preference. When I learned that there are no musical instruments in COC worship services because of their interpretation of the Bible, I was appalled. ReallY? How on earth could the Bible be interpreted that way - especially considering all the other “non-Biblical” things that go on in COC churches? In my view, the COC has taken the Scripture out of context and turned it around to fit their own beliefs - whether it’s about only men leading worship to having only a capella music - and then they’ve added the line about women being “honored” to make it palatable to the women in your churches. Some things are done because they either are or aren’t in the New Testament. Other things aren’t. It makes no sense to me - or to anyone else I’ve talked to who wasn’t raised in a COC church.

You can talk about women being in a place of honor all you like. But actions are what’s important - and the actions of the COC show that women are devalued. I firmly believe that when judgment time comes you will have to answer to God for willfully limiting how God can work through half the church members.

And even writing this, I feel almost guilty because although I’m expressing my belief, I don’t want you to feel I’m being judgmental. Although I can understand how you could get to your beliefs via the Bible, I don’t understand how you can get to your beliefs if you take the Bible and especially the New Testament as a whole. It goes against what’s emphasized over and over again in the New Testament - that in God’s eyes there is no male or female, etc. However, if that’s how you choose to interpret God’s Word, if you want to call your interpretation “God’s design” and if that’s how you want to worship, then that’s your right. Freedom of worship is a cornerstone of our nation.

]]> By: jm http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-65865 jm Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:48:51 +0000 http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-65865 I think that what you have said about context is very important. One cannot take half a sentence and leave the other half off to fit their desired meaning from the Bible. I understand that you are not accusing the churches of Christ for promoting abuse, and that you are only saying it makes it easier for men to do so because as you put it, "Talk all they want about how they respect women, but the foundational belief is one of disrespect of women." However, I think that if you continue reading the particular verse that so many have quoted here, you will see a different attitude represented in the Scriptures: Ephesians 5:22-33 22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband. . . . . You see, the comparison is being made between Christ and His Bride, the church; and a husband and wife. Christ loved us so much that he sacrificed his own life so that we could live. In the same way, a husband is to love his wife so much that he gives himself up to her. That is why verse 31 quotes Genesis; where God first instituted Marriage - that a husband is to leave his family, what he knows, and be joined to his wife; as one person. In the light of this complete passage, a woman must submit to her husband, who is to give his life for her, just as the church submits to Christ, who died for her. This is in light of this pure beautiful love that as a woman submits to her husband, he is to care for her as he would his own self; it is a place of honor; he serves her. She submits to him because he was taken out of him (read in Genesis, how God made woman from man's rib) There was no woman, made from a rib, until there was a man. Just as, there could be no church, unless Christ died to save sinners, thus adding the saved to the body, the church. This is why, God set a pattern to follow in which, men are to lead in worship. Not that it demotes the woman, for she is set in a place of honor, but that Christ is the head of the church, his bride, and in the same way, men are to lead in worship in the church. There are still so many things a woman can do, though! Don't see it as limiting; any more than it is an insult to men that they cannot bear children! There are so many examples in the Bible of Women of God and the things they did. We are simply created for different purposes in God's kingdom. Having said all that, I do understand your point that the churches of Christ might make it easier for a man to abuse his wife, but I really don't think that is possible unless the man does not understand - or chooses not to respect - the commandments of God; and His design for the family. <strong><em><p>TMS: Sounds like you had a double dose of the COC Koolaid. 2 + 2 = 5. Makes perfect sense if you've already decided that is the way it should be. No thought necessary. </p></em></strong> I think that what you have said about context is very important. One cannot take half a sentence and leave the other half off to fit their desired meaning from the Bible. I understand that you are not accusing the churches of Christ for promoting abuse, and that you are only saying it makes it easier for men to do so because as you put it, “Talk all they want about how they respect women, but the foundational belief is one of disrespect of women.” However, I think that if you continue reading the particular verse that so many have quoted here, you will see a different attitude represented in the Scriptures:

Ephesians 5:22-33
22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;

29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,

30because we are members of His body.

31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.

32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
. . . .

You see, the comparison is being made between Christ and His Bride, the church; and a husband and wife. Christ loved us so much that he sacrificed his own life so that we could live. In the same way, a husband is to love his wife so much that he gives himself up to her. That is why verse 31 quotes Genesis; where God first instituted Marriage - that a husband is to leave his family, what he knows, and be joined to his wife; as one person.

In the light of this complete passage, a woman must submit to her husband, who is to give his life for her, just as the church submits to Christ, who died for her. This is in light of this pure beautiful love that as a woman submits to her husband, he is to care for her as he would his own self; it is a place of honor; he serves her. She submits to him because he was taken out of him (read in Genesis, how God made woman from man’s rib) There was no woman, made from a rib, until there was a man. Just as, there could be no church, unless Christ died to save sinners, thus adding the saved to the body, the church.

This is why, God set a pattern to follow in which, men are to lead in worship. Not that it demotes the woman, for she is set in a place of honor, but that Christ is the head of the church, his bride, and in the same way, men are to lead in worship in the church. There are still so many things a woman can do, though! Don’t see it as limiting; any more than it is an insult to men that they cannot bear children! There are so many examples in the Bible of Women of God and the things they did. We are simply created for different purposes in God’s kingdom.

Having said all that, I do understand your point that the churches of Christ might make it easier for a man to abuse his wife, but I really don’t think that is possible unless the man does not understand - or chooses not to respect - the commandments of God; and His design for the family.

TMS: Sounds like you had a double dose of the COC Koolaid. 2 + 2 = 5. Makes perfect sense if you’ve already decided that is the way it should be. No thought necessary.

]]> By: h http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-43236 h Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:29:35 +0000 http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-43236 I don't think it is just that type of denomination per se! There are alot of people out there with warped visions on the roles of men and women. Murder in this type of situation is NOT justified! She claims it was an accident. I have NOT made up my mind! I do think some really screwy ideas, behaviors, etc were flowing in that home. Its not unusual for abused children to deny abuse. I personally think it was cruel of them to bring the daugther in - it wasn't needed! If you need what she brought to the table you have a pretty weak case! If you do a search and read articles on how families are counseled in cases of abuse - you might be surprised at the answers! This type of thing has been pretty much ignored in faith sections, and in alot of cases the burden handed back to the abused. Its called FEAR, and I can only imagine the extra pressure placed on a popular pastor's wife! IMAGE is important in the church as well, and they also can be guilty of keeping things hidden so that image stays in tact! If indeed Matthew was abusive he needed healing, and he needed his root of rage within him to be dealt with biblically. I'm not talking "having a word with him" either! That approach is joke, and is far from effective! That poor man lived a life filled with insecurties, hate, anger and a whole host of uglies! For whatever reason he felt he could not address them, and not only the church - but society as a whole does little to address that direction! THAT is the saddest part! Its so strange how people ask, "Why did you stay?" and never ask "Why does he do that?" We all know there are families out there with strange visions of roles, and how man is the HEAD, BOSS and unquestioned authority in their homes! I'm talking about people that got those roles out coersion, intimidation, etc - not respect and love by the fruits! I personally feel sorry and pray for the whole lot of them! They are all victims. Abuse is hidden from the church, and abuse is NOT encouraged to be brought out in alot of cases. LOL They say come and talk, but their responses in some cases show different! Its the not the COC - there are alot of people that claim they are doing their roles as God intended.....and haven't got the first clue what the spirit behind those words mean. Its sad. I don’t think it is just that type of denomination per se! There are alot of people out there with warped visions on the roles of men and women. Murder in this type of situation is NOT justified! She claims it was an accident. I have NOT made up my mind! I do think some really screwy ideas, behaviors, etc were flowing in that home. Its not unusual for abused children to deny abuse. I personally think it was cruel of them to bring the daugther in - it wasn’t needed! If you need what she brought to the table you have a pretty weak case!

If you do a search and read articles on how families are counseled in cases of abuse - you might be surprised at the answers! This type of thing has been pretty much ignored in faith sections, and in alot of cases the burden handed back to the abused. Its called FEAR, and I can only imagine the extra pressure placed on a popular pastor’s wife! IMAGE is important in the church as well, and they also can be guilty of keeping things hidden so that image stays in tact!

If indeed Matthew was abusive he needed healing, and he needed his root of rage within him to be dealt with biblically. I’m not talking “having a word with him” either! That approach is joke, and is far from effective! That poor man lived a life filled with insecurties, hate, anger and a whole host of uglies! For whatever reason he felt he could not address them, and not only the church - but society as a whole does little to address that direction! THAT is the saddest part! Its so strange how people ask, “Why did you stay?” and never ask “Why does he do that?”

We all know there are families out there with strange visions of roles, and how man is the HEAD, BOSS and unquestioned authority in their homes! I’m talking about people that got those roles out coersion, intimidation, etc - not respect and love by the fruits!

I personally feel sorry and pray for the whole lot of them! They are all victims. Abuse is hidden from the church, and abuse is NOT encouraged to be brought out in alot of cases. LOL They say come and talk, but their responses in some cases show different!

Its the not the COC - there are alot of people that claim they are doing their roles as God intended…..and haven’t got the first clue what the spirit behind those words mean. Its sad.

]]> By: MJ http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-43218 MJ Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:12:58 +0000 http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-43218 I am currently watching the trial of Mary Winkler and I am going to reserve judgement. But I do want to point out that I am a lapsed COC member and I do know for a fact that the Elders of the Church do (in my opinion) interfere with your lives. My sister died of unexplained causes, I was very ill and a family friend died all in one year. The Elders came to our home and wanted to know what was wrong with my Mama. She wasn't acting right. I was young at the time, but I remember it very well. I continued to attend as I was young, but over the years things I saw and heard changed my opinion of the COC. <strong><em>TMS: While the COC doesn't "teach" abuse (as some have accused me of saying) and while they don't "condone" abuse (as others have accused me of writing), its beliefs DO make it easier for abuse to happen. Anytime your basic beliefs put one group of people (men) as the authority over another group of people (women), abuse will happen. Talk all they want about how they respect women, but the foundational belief is one of disrespect of women. That is NOT what Jesus taught. </em></strong> I am currently watching the trial of Mary Winkler and I am going to reserve judgement. But I do want to point out that I am a lapsed COC member and I do know for a fact that the Elders of the Church do (in my opinion) interfere with your lives. My sister died of unexplained causes, I was very ill and a family friend died all in one year. The Elders came to our home and wanted to know what was wrong with my Mama. She wasn’t acting right. I was young at the time, but I remember it very well. I continued to attend as I was young, but over the years things I saw and heard changed my opinion of the COC.

TMS: While the COC doesn’t “teach” abuse (as some have accused me of saying) and while they don’t “condone” abuse (as others have accused me of writing), its beliefs DO make it easier for abuse to happen. Anytime your basic beliefs put one group of people (men) as the authority over another group of people (women), abuse will happen. Talk all they want about how they respect women, but the foundational belief is one of disrespect of women. That is NOT what Jesus taught.

]]> By: Annette http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-43070 Annette Sun, 15 Apr 2007 01:48:01 +0000 http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-43070 TMS, I come with love, I do not suggest you are intentionally saying bad things about the COC, but in a sense you are. You make it sound bad to be submissive to your husband. Being submissive to a God fearing man should be easy to do. When you can, "love thy God with all your heart", you are watchful of how you treat people...not just your wife/husband. You look at nature (animals, insects, etc.) They all know their place or shall I say roles. The male animal has his part to play and the female, her part to play. Do you believe it's any different for humans? The only difference is that we have the ability think and question, to believe we know best. It's my belief...truly mine, that this is why society is the way it is. The breakdown of the family, is because 1)Men do not love their wives as Jesus loves the Church. 2)Women don't respect their men. All this leads to so much more like adultery, divorce, unplanned pregancy, kids unattended, STD's...it's all about respecting the union you have vowed to God to honor. It is so important to have roles defined. Even on a ship their is a Captian and a Co-Captain. Not that the Co-Captain can't do the same things as the Captain, it's just that his their respected ranking. (We accept that and understand something like that, why can't we in a holy union unto God?) Hmmmmm.... All I am saying is, I can't pick and choose what I want to believe about the bible. Either I believe it or I don't. Society say women can do this and that which is politcally right, but it's spirtually wrong. I actually enjoy seeing the men lead Sunday Service. For I am single woman, it nice seeing a man take charge while I rest. (AMEN) <strong><em>TMS: And all I have been saying is the same - no one should pick and choose what they want to believe about the Bible. Amen.</em></strong> TMS,

I come with love, I do not suggest you are intentionally saying bad things about the COC, but in a sense you are. You make it sound bad to be submissive to your husband. Being submissive to a God fearing man should be easy to do. When you can, “love thy God with all your heart”, you are watchful of how you treat people…not just your wife/husband.

You look at nature (animals, insects, etc.) They all know their place or shall I say roles. The male animal has his part to play and the female, her part to play. Do you believe it’s any different for humans? The only difference is that we have the ability think and question, to believe we know best. It’s my belief…truly mine, that this is why society is the way it is. The breakdown of the family, is because 1)Men do not love their wives as Jesus loves the Church. 2)Women don’t respect their men. All this leads to so much more like adultery, divorce, unplanned pregancy, kids unattended, STD’s…it’s all about respecting the union you have vowed to God to honor.

It is so important to have roles defined. Even on a ship their is a Captian and a Co-Captain. Not that the Co-Captain can’t do the same things as the Captain, it’s just that his their respected ranking. (We accept that and understand something like that, why can’t we in a holy union unto God?) Hmmmmm….

All I am saying is, I can’t pick and choose what I want to believe about the bible. Either I believe it or I don’t. Society say women can do this and that which is politcally right, but it’s spirtually wrong. I actually enjoy seeing the men lead Sunday Service. For I am single woman, it nice seeing a man take charge while I rest. (AMEN)

TMS: And all I have been saying is the same - no one should pick and choose what they want to believe about the Bible. Amen.

]]> By: Dawn Harris http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-42792 Dawn Harris Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:23:28 +0000 http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-42792 :roll: Let me say for one I live in Bethel Springs, Tn which is 6 Miles from Selmer where Mary Carol Winkler Murdered her husband in Cold Blood, Keep in mind these are my personal opinions, I dont care church or not be it be Catholic, Christian, Baptist Etc... No way anyone woman or man would put up with abuse, Mary could have left the situation at any given moment when Matthew Winkler had stepped out of the house, I dont belive she and her children were glued to his side at all moments, she had opportunity to leave and chose not to for one reason or another but it couldnt have been fear, cause fear would have made her leave, I have been in an abusive relationship, Mental & Physical, Yes I agree she may have snapped but to pick up a shotgun and shoot him in the back and then pull out the phone cord, Oh please.... There is no reason for that, to leave and not even leave a way for him to call for help, he was still alive and suffering for a few minutes in which if the phone was plugged in he could have called for help, thats just Cold Blooded and Wrong. I live in this County and we are a laid back town where things like this hardly happen, yes there are other things such as drug raids and car wrecks but Murder this is a complete shock to all of us here in this Town and surrounding Towns, it has caused a media circus at our local courthouse and lots people want questions answered, well we are about to get those answers I hope, But there is no reason for COLD BLOODED MURDER.... GOD SAYS THOU SHALL NOT KILL. <strong><em>TMS: And I don't disagree with you at all! There was no EXCUSE for Mary Winkler to murder her husband. All I have said is that I can understand how she might have felt trapped and thus snapped. Understanding WHY doesn't excuse what she did and I've never said it did.</em></strong> roll Let me say for one I live in Bethel Springs, Tn which is 6 Miles from Selmer where Mary Carol Winkler Murdered her husband in Cold Blood, Keep in mind these are my personal opinions, I dont care church or not be it be Catholic, Christian, Baptist Etc… No way anyone woman or man would put up with abuse, Mary could have left the situation at any given moment when Matthew Winkler had stepped out of the house, I dont belive she and her children were glued to his side at all moments, she had opportunity to leave and chose not to for one reason or another but it couldnt have been fear, cause fear would have made her leave, I have been in an abusive relationship, Mental & Physical, Yes I agree she may have snapped but to pick up a shotgun and shoot him in the back and then pull out the phone cord, Oh please…. There is no reason for that, to leave and not even leave a way for him to call for help, he was still alive and suffering for a few minutes in which if the phone was plugged in he could have called for help, thats just Cold Blooded and Wrong.

I live in this County and we are a laid back town where things like this hardly happen, yes there are other things such as drug raids and car wrecks but Murder this is a complete shock to all of us here in this Town and surrounding Towns, it has caused a media circus at our local courthouse and lots people want questions answered, well we are about to get those answers I hope, But there is no reason for COLD BLOODED MURDER…. GOD SAYS THOU SHALL NOT KILL.

TMS: And I don’t disagree with you at all! There was no EXCUSE for Mary Winkler to murder her husband. All I have said is that I can understand how she might have felt trapped and thus snapped. Understanding WHY doesn’t excuse what she did and I’ve never said it did.

]]> By: Lou http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-42689 Lou Thu, 12 Apr 2007 06:16:35 +0000 http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-42689 I'm not C of C but I hold the same views. Husbands are to love their wives and wives are to be subjective. It is not as a servant or door mat. Real love puts the wife on a pedistal. She is the queen of the home, a help meet and it is not a task. I do believe there is more to the Winkler case than meets the eye. She was not the innocent little subjective wife. She manipulated the family finances, and had a place waiting after she commited the murder. Most likely she just did not wake up one morning, pick up a gun and shot her husband. She hated him because she knew he was mad because she lost a lot of their money. He trusted her and she broke that trust. If she was doing things behind his back. There is the possibility she abused herself because of her guilt. She killed him and then pulled out the phone plug. How cruel! Even now look at her face. You do not see remorce. She chose to kill him instead of leaving him if she was unhappy in her marriage. So she was filled with hatred. She is playing the sympathy card with her rings and cross neckless. Hopefully the jury will find her guilty. One last thought. It is easy to accuse a man when he is dead and cannot defend himself. I was just hoping she'd plead guilty and take her sentence, but it looks like she going to try to drag him through the mud and leave a bad legacy for her children. She should at least let them remember their dad as good. <strong><em>TMS: Wow! You are certainly jumping to a lot of conclusions - and condemning someone before the trial. Something I consider just as bad as accusing a man who is dead and can't defend himself. And SHAME on Mary Winkler for not being subjective enough! LOL! Nobody wants to be put on a pedestal. That's a lonely and un-human place to be.</em></strong> I’m not C of C but I hold the same views. Husbands are to love their wives and wives are to be subjective. It is not as a servant or door mat. Real love puts the wife on a pedistal. She is the queen of the home, a help meet and it is not a task.
I do believe there is more to the Winkler case than meets the eye. She was not the innocent little subjective wife. She manipulated the family finances, and had a place waiting after she commited the murder. Most likely she just did not wake up one morning, pick up a gun and shot her husband.
She hated him because she knew he was mad because she lost a lot of their money. He trusted her and she broke that trust. If she was doing things behind his back. There is the possibility she abused herself because of her guilt.
She killed him and then pulled out the phone plug. How cruel! Even now look at her face. You do not see remorce.
She chose to kill him instead of leaving him if she was unhappy in her marriage. So she was filled with hatred.
She is playing the sympathy card with her rings and cross neckless. Hopefully the jury will find her guilty.
One last thought. It is easy to accuse a man when he is dead and cannot defend himself. I was just hoping she’d plead guilty and take her sentence, but it looks like she going to try to drag him through the mud and leave a bad legacy for her children. She should at least let them remember their dad as good.

TMS: Wow! You are certainly jumping to a lot of conclusions - and condemning someone before the trial. Something I consider just as bad as accusing a man who is dead and can’t defend himself. And SHAME on Mary Winkler for not being subjective enough! LOL! Nobody wants to be put on a pedestal. That’s a lonely and un-human place to be.

]]> By: janjanmom http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-42659 janjanmom Wed, 11 Apr 2007 22:30:37 +0000 http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-42659 Hey TMS!! I am a COC member and I am not offended. Many members take the scriptures out of context and way over the line. We happen to belong to a "progressive" COC but it did not get there overnight. I have known other denominations that are equally oppressive. Blanket statements are common about all denominations and if a denomination doesn't like their "label", they need to work aggressively to change it not whine about it. Now, back to the post. COC has a bad reputation, but I don't think ANYONE EVER gets a pass on MURDER. She could have left him and the church and took her kiddos to some other denomination if he/it was so oppressive. I am tired of women thinking they get to murder someone because he is critical or abusive and they "snap". Too many agencies are willing to help, those girls are cursed for life-what a past to get over-Dad is dead and Mom is in jail <strong><em>TMS: Amen! Thanks for commenting! I have never excused what she did because of the possibility that she or the children were abused. All I said is I could understand the feeling of being trapped. </em></strong> Hey TMS!!

I am a COC member and I am not offended. Many members take the scriptures out of context and way over the line. We happen to belong to a “progressive” COC but it did not get there overnight. I have known other denominations that are equally oppressive. Blanket statements are common about all denominations and if a denomination doesn’t like their “label”, they need to work aggressively to change it not whine about it.

Now, back to the post. COC has a bad reputation, but I don’t think ANYONE EVER gets a pass on MURDER. She could have left him and the church and took her kiddos to some other denomination if he/it was so oppressive. I am tired of women thinking they get to murder someone because he is critical or abusive and they “snap”. Too many agencies are willing to help, those girls are cursed for life-what a past to get over-Dad is dead and Mom is in jail

TMS: Amen! Thanks for commenting! I have never excused what she did because of the possibility that she or the children were abused. All I said is I could understand the feeling of being trapped.

]]> By: nell http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-42648 nell Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:47:51 +0000 http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-42648 Isn't freedom of speech a wonderful thing. Your holier than thou attitude disappoints me. So I reread what you had written. "the church is a magnet for abusive men"??? You are not an authority on the COC. I was born and raised in Middle Tennessee and your attitude brings back memories of an "attitude I remember in growing up there. You write a blog that I assume you want others to read with the idea to share ideas but when they disagree with you, you become hostile and testy. So I guess you are justing writing your own personal diary since you try to run off your readers. Since you are only getting one or two comments maybe that's all the readers you are getting so maybe you need to rethink your responses or we will all go "as you say" Buh-bye. <strong><em>TMS: Did you go back and read all the posts I've written on this topic? The "buh-bye" was in response to your remark that if I didn't apologize you'd stop reading. That's your choice. I've explained my beliefs as patiently and nicely as I can. If you disagree, then that's fine. However, I don't see where I need to apologize to anyone. And I'm certainly not "holier than thou" and "Hostile and testy" is not my attitude at all. I've certainly gotten a lot of "holier than thou" and "hostile and testy" comments from COC people disagreeing with me and condemning me for my beliefs. I get frustrated because people read one post and decide then and there that I need to apologize. Go back and read all I've written about this case, and you should see that I'm quite reasonable. I realize I will never get a COC person to acknowledge that there's even a glimmer of a chance that their interpretation of a woman's place in the church in any way attracts men who lean toward abuse. Instead of being reasonable, they accuse me of attacking the church and declare that I'm saying the church TEACHES abuse - which is not the case at all. I'm not sure why I bother to keep responding to these remarks. Oh yes - check what you wrote, and you'll see that "attitude" is a two-way street. </em></strong> Isn’t freedom of speech a wonderful thing. Your holier than thou attitude disappoints me. So I reread what you had written. “the church is a magnet for abusive men”??? You are not an authority on the COC. I was born and raised in Middle Tennessee and your attitude brings back memories of an “attitude I remember in growing up there. You write a blog that I assume you want others to read with the idea to share ideas but when they disagree with you, you become hostile and testy. So I guess you are justing writing your own personal diary since you try to run off your readers. Since you are only getting one or two comments maybe that’s all the readers you are getting so maybe you need to rethink your responses or we will all go “as you say” Buh-bye.

TMS: Did you go back and read all the posts I’ve written on this topic? The “buh-bye” was in response to your remark that if I didn’t apologize you’d stop reading. That’s your choice. I’ve explained my beliefs as patiently and nicely as I can. If you disagree, then that’s fine. However, I don’t see where I need to apologize to anyone. And I’m certainly not “holier than thou” and “Hostile and testy” is not my attitude at all. I’ve certainly gotten a lot of “holier than thou” and “hostile and testy” comments from COC people disagreeing with me and condemning me for my beliefs.
I get frustrated because people read one post and decide then and there that I need to apologize. Go back and read all I’ve written about this case, and you should see that I’m quite reasonable. I realize I will never get a COC person to acknowledge that there’s even a glimmer of a chance that their interpretation of a woman’s place in the church in any way attracts men who lean toward abuse. Instead of being reasonable, they accuse me of attacking the church and declare that I’m saying the church TEACHES abuse - which is not the case at all. I’m not sure why I bother to keep responding to these remarks.

Oh yes - check what you wrote, and you’ll see that “attitude” is a two-way street.

]]> By: nell http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-42627 nell Wed, 11 Apr 2007 05:06:52 +0000 http://themediansib.com/2007/04/10/mary-winkler-goes-to-trial/#comment-42627 I am with Annette on this. I seriously believe that you owe all members of the Church of Christ a great apoligy for making such a broad statement about it's teachings. I am almost 70 years old, been a member of the COC all my life and so have my family members who are in Tennessee, Georgia and Florida. The women in my family are independent loving wifes, mothers and career women who love the lord and their church and we have all become the glue that holds our families together. I don't know of any, any, one in the COC who has been abused. Lay that charge at the door of any church including yours. It's not the church that carries this burden but the community that abuse prevails. I would think you are a very "thinking" person. Please think first before printing such charges. I enjoy reading your blog but I can't continue if you continue in this vein. Sorry. Nell <strong><em>TMS: Too bad that you can't read something you disagree with. However, that rather reinforces my point. At no time have I been rude, and I have written repeatedly that I know many MANY wonderful Christian people in the COC. I'm tired of explaining myself and tired of having to defend myself again COC folks who keep saying the same things. Read everything I've written on the topic, and THEN see if you still think I owe you an apology. I doubt it. And if you feel you can't continue reading TMS - buh-bye.</em></strong> I am with Annette on this. I seriously believe that you owe all members of the Church of Christ a great apoligy for making such a broad statement about it’s teachings. I am almost 70 years old, been a member of the COC all my life and so have my family members who are in Tennessee, Georgia and Florida. The women in my family are independent loving wifes, mothers and career women who love the lord and their church and we have all become the glue that holds our families together. I don’t know of any, any, one in the COC who has been abused. Lay that charge at the door of any church including yours. It’s not the church that carries this burden but the community that abuse prevails. I would think you are a very “thinking” person. Please think first before printing such charges. I enjoy reading your blog but I can’t continue if you continue in this vein. Sorry. Nell

TMS: Too bad that you can’t read something you disagree with. However, that rather reinforces my point. At no time have I been rude, and I have written repeatedly that I know many MANY wonderful Christian people in the COC. I’m tired of explaining myself and tired of having to defend myself again COC folks who keep saying the same things. Read everything I’ve written on the topic, and THEN see if you still think I owe you an apology. I doubt it. And if you feel you can’t continue reading TMS - buh-bye.

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